SPS corals

[alanseah]

yup even me agree to AT.. coral are endanger animal already dont go killing more...

i u r rich that is your problem....

one more things.. I very agree u stock up so fast man..

even for me that time.. I took one months to age my salt water.. and I really mean salt water only..and nothing else in the tank..

then after that I took another months to cycle my tank with sand and rock...

unless you are tranfering your old rock, sand and water from old tank to new tank else you are way way too fast..

even your coral and LS are fine now. I can tell you, you are going to face problem like high n02 and n03, agle problem ects down the road...

[strat]

Totally agreed with AT and the rest of the reefers here, be a sensible reefer. Read up, read up, read up and more read ups!!

Although I am also quite a newbie, I am still learning and I don't want to kill any livestock with my ignorance. J

James72, I hope you can change your mind about "killing livestock so that you can experiment" since I believe that you can get answers from the internet and forums.

Anyway, we are here to learn from each other, don;t we?

Cheers!!

[hoppinghippos]

James: Its not a matter of whether its ok to experiment, its a matter of insisting on experimenting knowing the outcome, esp when it results in loss of life. pple experiment when the outcome is very unclear, but if the outcome is quite predictable (eg > 80% chance your LS will die) then it isn't called experiment but stubborness to take no for an answer. given your tank setup and current equipment and stock, there's a high chance SPS won't make it in your tank, so to persist is like kicking a dog and believing it won't bite back.

[Acanthurus pyroferus]

guy's when you come to think of it we all lost livestock be it corals or fishes when we were starting out right? so a whole lot of us never had proper advice in the begining...so aren't we as much to blame when we first started out as a newbie?!?!?!?! If you put all of us together....how much livestock did we loose...

[Acanthurus pyroferus]

what we need is a softer approach and not because we are the "experts" and know everything but then again it is a reminder that we too started out from scratch. We can give advice but do you honestly think one would follow what we say???????? I am not saying that he's right a 100% but we don't have halo's over our heads as well....

[Acanthurus pyroferus]

in me diapers.... either i look very young or..... you just made me day... hehehehe....

but seriously.... i dont think a soft approach is going to make any difference...

I think you must have been cute in diapers.... with a little nemo tank... One thing is that James posted the thread knowing that he would be blasted by his eagerness to stock everything up so early but on the other hand he could have kept quiet and we wouldn't know how much losses might have occured. In any sense we still loose in trying to advise....

[Weapon_Master]

I think I agree with all your advice. I am a newbie here and I want to say that this site helped me alot to get started.

My tank is just 10days old and without this forum I probably wouldnt know all the things I need to do and monitor. I will heed all the advice I can get so as not to invest needless $$$.

For at least the first 12 months, my tank will be coral free.

So dont be dishearten everyone! There are still alot of ppl out there who listens!

The bottom line is being responsible reefer. My quote is "why try anything if you know you dont stand a chance of winning".

Still hope that James will be convinced and turn back before making any silly mistakes

[Tanzy]

what we need is a softer approach and not because we are the "experts" and know everything but then again it is a reminder that we too started out from scratch. We can give advice but do you honestly think one would follow what we say???????? I am not saying that he's right a 100% but we don't have halo's over our heads as well....

Dudette,

*takes off halo*

It's always about attitude. That's what makes the difference.

*puts halo back*

[alanseah]

wow for the 1st 12 month coral free...

thats' very long leh.. dont need that long la.. so long u got the water parameter right and have the right equpment can add in coral lor..

[Joe_P]

what we need is a softer approach and not because we are the "experts" and know everything but then again it is a reminder that we too started out from scratch. We can give advice but do you honestly think one would follow what we say???????? I am not saying that he's right a 100% but we don't have halo's over our heads as well....

I can’t agree with what you have jus mentioned..

I think we are pretty “soft” in our approach to many of the newbies here….

It’s only when newbies who arrive here and after being instructed time and time again on the proper method of this hobby and still remain adamant of their erring ways than do the so called “experts” come in really hard on them….

Take a look around… and you would have noticed numerous instructional threads and links being put up to educate aspiring reefers……

Jus look at the post our dear friend has made….. it is so clear that he has little regard for the hobby….

Remember, this forum was created so that reefers would benefit from each other and practice “Responsible Reefing”. And that is doing the right thing…

Leave the experimenting to those who have attend certain level of understanding and success….

PS… There are no experts reefers here…. Only experienced ones….

[alanseah]

ok ok.. ppls cool down..

he shout and scold also useless think he dont even bother to come in and take a look already.. so why waste your time..

[Cookiemunster]

James72,

I can understand your eagerness to keep corals which visually appeal to you. As I have been there before too.

However, when I started out, I didn't have anyone to guide me or teach me which is easier to keep or what requirements each coral had. I learnt it the hard way and was very disappointed each time any coral died. I only learnt of this forum in my eagerness to search for more information.

Now with this forum, I feel this kind of wastage and spending is not necessary especially when there are so many experienced reefers here who willingly share info and guidance.

Perhaps you should reconsider very very carefully.

In fact better understanding of the hobby and knowing the demands and requirements of each coral makes this hobby much more interesting. And I feel nothing makes it more satisfying than to watch your corals in the the small world you created not only survive but thrive and flourish.

On the contrary, if we never take the time to learn properly and setup the proper requirements to keep corals, we kill our own interest because with every death, we can loose interest and find it unmeaningful. It is also unrewarding and frustrating. Not to mention a total waste of money.

It is wise to start with SPS frags before buying entire colonies....as is the way many going towards SPS do too. But your tank is simply not stable yet and many here advise that you be a little more patient before wasting your money and worse killing unnecessary lifestock.

The folks here advise and comment with good intention. And especially the advise given by AT. He is one reefer here you can certainly trust with his advice.

If you were so eager, why not pm AT for personal advise and ask him to help you setup a proper tank and guide you when to start towards the path of keeping SPS and other demanding corals. I am pretty sure he will not hesitate to guide you or refer you to the right direction.

[Acanthurus pyroferus]

Joe ...threads , advise , forums and links....you think it's helping it may not be James alone thats doing this , unfortunately there might be hundreds more out there thats destroying livestock this way...so what do you suggest we do...give up our jobs to protect the marine hobby in Singapore? No we can't honestly keep track of whats going on in the LFS and in Newbies homes. We advise like theres no tomorrow so a softer approach is needed definitely and again I might stress that we were at that stage once. This forum is help but theres not much further we can do to prevent anything if someone doesn't want to listen. Just like Tanzy said , it's all about the attitude...we take off our halo's when advising and put them back on when we're done.

[hsloo]

Hi,

I also agree with the expert advice here. I am also a newbie in reefing. I remembered when i first start off the reef tank in 4 months ago, my first aim is not to have all kind of fishes and corals in the tank, but i tried very hard not to loss their life, not even 1 fish.

With this promise to "them", i only have 2 fishes and 3 softies in my tank. I still trying hard to make sure the water parameters is in the safest level before i dare to put them into my tank.

Buying them is not just a meaning of owning them, but also make sure yourself able to take care of them well.

I did "trial an error" in my IT-related jobs, but NEVER on life.

Be responsible.

[FuEl]

Here a list of some species that you might want to experiment on in your tank

1)Nudibranchs (the more colorful the better)

2)Sea apples

3)Anemones

4)Featherstars

5)Boxfish

6)Aiptasia

7)Cyanobacteria

8)Triggerfish

9)Hairy crabs

10)Tube anemones

[Achilles Tang]

Acanthurus pyroferus,

I don't know how much softer I can get. All I know is that I am very eager to assist newbies who have an attitude to learn and improve and I get very turned off by newbies who stubbornly refuse to change their ways inspite of well-meaning advice given by others or myself.

I know that there are many different kinds of people in society and life, and I believe even a child will know how to differentiate the above two.

There used to be a reefer here called S*******e, who irked many of us with his 'I don't care what you guys think, I'll do it my own way' attitude and extreme fickleness, and have pulled wool over our eyes quite a few times with his secret livestocking. Gradually, he learned a lot more and based on my observations, he has humbled himself after seeing how some of us approach the hobby and have successful tanks. Today, he may be even seen giving newbies some tips!

I mean, how many mistakes can one make through sheer stubbornness? This is not a cheap hobby. Even if you are a rich man, there are certain morality guidelines and ethics that governs actions and thoughts.

The approach one has towards learning more about this hobby will determine success or failure.

We can do our part to teach and guide but we can't FORCE anyone to learn.

Also... many of us have learnt to treasure the lives of our marine pets and taken steps and lots of $$$ to create the ideal conditions for their long term survivability. What do you say about people who PURPOSELY still want to keep livestock in LESS than IDEAL conditions where death and suffering is GUARANTEED?

AT

[tahiti paradise]

To all reefers

Well said on the parts, i totally agree! All thumps up! in Fact humans bring disaster to themselves!

[Acanthurus pyroferus]

AT , I definitely don't agree with someone who refuses to listen to good and trust worthy advice from the many experienced reefers here but when these people appear in threads and forums to show that they don't really care what we think is because in some way we might have come on a little too strong on them with our own experienced years in reefing.

Don't get me wrong but I understand the eagerness in trying to help these newbies as I feel the same way too. I've had some semi experienced reefers come over seeking advice but somehow just refuse to take it. I guess they want to be called their own persons or they might have too much pride already , if you know what I mean.

Theres many more thats out there thats doing the same thing but we can't do anything about or prevent it in anyway as we're only here to advise and hope and pray that they know the conservation rights and the beauty mother nature intended for our eyes. What we need is patience with the newbies and although many advisers are "irked" about the irritable ones with pure stubborness , some persuasiveness is applied but if that doesn't really do the job then it's best to just leave the person alone with his own thinking.

I think that when we come on too strong with whats right a newbie gets defensive unless they sincerely want our help. Pat them on the back for getting into this wonderful hobby and approach each issue in steps. I know that when someone enters into this hobby he or she would like to be good at it but remember that we were once there and made our own share of mistakes too.

[andysho]

well i agree some might have too much pride

For one thing~~ we all start from scratch, a newbie might know something which a old bird dun even know~~~

So no point to act so proud~~ as if when start keeping marine~ know everything from start to the end

[Mellow]

do agree with Acanthurus pyroferus that at times, in some ways, we might have come a little too strongly on such reefers??? I think we do need more patience at times, especially to newbies and those so called stubborn ones. Explain to them in the correct light, why and what they are doing wrong and stuff...???A little patience definitely goes a long way.... Of course, we can understand why some of us are annoyed because we are talking about living things here, beautiful marine life which brings us joy and satisfaction but I feel that it might not help matters if we just keep going down so hard on him....a softer approach will be more helpful i feel...

[Acanthurus pyroferus]

Honestly speaking I would have been offended if I was a newbie and probably wouldn't want to listen to more advise from then on. I know at times the new ones can be annoying but I think theres some good in them who may want to learn further but need that extra support and encouragement. We want them to return to ask further into this hobby and not turn them off in anyway. I personally want this forum to be a place where new comers keep returning for better and further advise. To all newbies out there , we are here to advise you and not control you because this is a serious hobby that requires responsibility and alot of patience. So don't be discouraged , AT and the rest of us can and will help you if you're in truly dire straits of knowledge and information but we won't encouraged or support the abuse of marinelife true sheer ignorance or stubborness to know whats right. If we go silent on a particular thread then it's up to you to realize that only good information arises from here without a leash on hand..

[Achilles Tang]

Acanthurus pyroferus,

Coming from a lady, you are probably more sensitive than we 'tuff & gruff guys when it comes to talking. We guys have been through national service and sometimes we learn its better to cut through the BS and get straight to the matter at times.

Regarding the need to coddle and 'soft talk'... but I think many of us exhibit a lot of patience when it comes to advising newbies. Remember our intent is to guide those who appreciate knowledge-gathering.

Most of us tend to monitor and investigate the person's experience & knowledge levels and even his reefkeeping record before we come up with certain 'not so soft and nice to hear' comments.

In James72's case, I didn't blast him... in fact, I merely expressed dismay that he was in SRC for sometime already and should have learnt something by now. Then he went away to stock his tank in a very short time with extremely hard to care for livestock, even for 'experts'!!! And now he wants to keep acros in his barely 3 weeks old tank!?

How many threads were there on these very same creatures for the past few weeks and months? Quite a few actually!

I can deduce he made his stocking decision PURELY on how 'beautiful' these livestock look without bothering to learn all their needs and housing requirements.

The fact that he didn't respond to me pointing out his shortfalls and saying he didn't care how they fare in his tank and will even go ahead and proceed to 'try' out keeping acropora corals in his tank shows that he doesn't give a shit about what we think or care for.

Some people need to get a hard wake-up call. Some people need to be ignored. Some people need soft approaches.

Tell me how soft should further advice to him be? I really like to know how to approach people with this kind of attitude.

[Acanthurus pyroferus]

AT ,

I think what you advised came from your own gut feeling and very much annoyed by this newbie's decision to stock up on corals even the experts find it hard to keep was too much to handle when this particular person had been going around in SRC asking questions and posting threads for sometime now already. I think your dimayed showed in your replies and this probably ticked this James off for some reason.

What I meant with a softer approach is to not let the stubborness affect you because this will lead to a dismayed reply. To the truth fact we can't go to his house and bash him in the head to do the right thing. (sorry that was not ladylike) and we know theres no way of stopping a person like him. (he has not come in to clear his name even) We don't want to turn newbies like him away because eventually we know he will seek for proper advice once his tank crashes after stocking too early and too soon. We already know what the outcome is going to be but it's sad to know that maybe most if not all of his livestock will pay that price of his ignorance and stubborness.

Yes , there were many threads on these subjects but I think we pissed this James off and don't know what the hell he is up to now with his fully stocked tank. I only dread to think..... I think we want a friendly atmosphere and an approachable one. I think there are many more newbies who want to ask in full but are holding back in some way or another. He must have been reading the thread and thought of us as a bunch of "know it all" so I suggest not coming on so strong with what they should do but a subtleness thrown in to boost their ego's. Men have alot of that (no offence to you guy's out there) It can do wonders believe me We're here to protect this wonderful hobby but outside of it we're totally helpless unfortunately...

[Achilles Tang]

Acan, you puzzle me.

Does James72 looks like he is ticked off from his last response? I think not! Are you being over-sensitive for him?

He said "Thank you guys but NO THANK YOU, I'LL DO IT MY WAY".

I think he is the one who pissed us off rather than the other way around! Someone tell me that I'm wrong! I read and re-read the thread and didn't see any form of antagonistic postings from me or anyone else until he replied.

I have many PMs and emails from newbies thanking me/SRC for the many advice, tips and guidance they have garnered from direct or indirect means. I have yet to get one from a newbie saying that we 'oldies' are 'spoiling' how they view the hobby.

Fact: REEFKEEPING is not for the uneducated* (*see my comments below) , the budget-constrained, the ignorant, the undedicated & the lazy hobbyist.

I believe in 'spare the rod and spoil the child' and I also believe in individual freedom. We are all adults here. Even Dispar Anthia, the youngest regular here, behaves better than some much older newbies in SRC.

FACT: There's nothing personal in our advice to James72.

I tell it like it is... I don't gift-wrap and doll up hard facts. The TRUTH may HURT but it will SET you FREE.

My advice (depending on my mood) may range from the long-winded, stuffed with details, illustrated in technicolor postings... to curt, 'why don't you get off your lazy bum and search a bit coz the info is ALL THERE' postings.

FACT: I'm no Mr Perfect, I am not a KNOW-it-ALL.

I'm still learning but believe I have reached a stage where I can help LOTS of newbies out there from making the same mistakes that I have made and be a responsible reefer as much as they can.

FACT: If James72 and anyone with the same attitude wants to turn over a new leaf and be a responsible reefer, I WILL HELP HIM TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITIES.

Edited February 11, 2004 by Achilles Tang

[hmkui]

Well ladies and guys out there, please keep our cool. Firstly, for those who are stubborn and would not listen, no matter what we said it won't change their attitude so it is useless to even advice what they need or need not do. What is important is the readiness to share and exchange our experiences with those who are willing to learn. We would not be able to stop hobbyist to engage in impulsive buying disorder nor could we stop them from killing those LS but we can do is to educated them but whether they want to learn or not that is beyond our means. AT please at all times please becareful with the words you used... some of the words might be very hurting. I am quite disturbed by the way you say that reefkeeping is not for those whom are uneducated (hopefully you mean those who didn't do research on this hobby) and budget constraint because I have come across hobbyist whom have keep this hobby successfully without spending a lot of money on it and some of them are not highly educated. Mean no harm just my 2 cts thoughts.... cheers