Raid on Pasir Ris Farm

[flubberina13]

Aiyah...read my post and realised it's ambiguous...

What I meant is advocate 'Responsible Reefing' but dun bother with the HEARSAYERS...

Their objective is to destroy friendship and relationships...

Those gossip mongers!!!

[weileong]

From what I heard, AVA only issues license for two types of coral under CITIES. That is for acro and clams only.

If that is true that means the rest all illegal already.

Softies are not under CITIES right? That's why after the red, can only see softies for sale in the PR LFS.

[BarraCudaTM]

CITIES will cover almost all hardcorals, clams and other endangered animals

[Achilles Tang]

From what I heard, AVA only issues license for two types of coral under CITIES. That is for acro and clams only.

If that is true that means the rest all illegal already.

Softies are not under CITIES right? That's why after the red, can only see softies for sale in the PR LFS.

Basically, all livestock entering Singapore.. including all LR, Softies, hard corals inclusive of LPS & SPS corals, fish, inverts (even snails) have to be declared with the AVA.

An import permit will be approved and granted after it has met with ALL their criteria & rules.

Generally, softies are not considered endangered as they are very common. But hard corals because of their intrinsic nature of being 'reef-builders' (as in their hard bodies grow fast and form the bulk of the physical reef) are monitored closely by CITIES.

Again, I must state for the benefit of all newbies and ill-informed... that hard corals inclusive of LPS and SPS are NOT illegal as CITIES allows international trade in them as long as their harvesting do not exceed the exporting country's quota given by CITIES.

Locally, all importers are EXPECTED to do the necessary paperwork with the AVA who enforces the CITIES rules.

Failure to do so means that AVA has the right to deem the shipment in breach of the CITIES/AVA rules and therefore illegal.

Why some importers are still doing it illegally is for the measly one hundred dollars cost-savings per shipment for the CITIES/AVA permit and better retail profits.

It is much more troublesome to apply for the CITIES permit for hard corals esp SPS because having to ID the corals properly is troublesome and probably delays their shipment... so that is why some don't bother and take the risk of having some smuggled in with other 'easier to declare and approve' livestock like fishes, softies, inverts etc.

Someone with more accurate info please correct me if I am wrong.

AT

[ben]

according to my supplier, this raid will still last for one month so be patient. Most of LFS had stopped stocking up unwanted items so things are expensive now.

BTW LR types that only can be sold legally are the types with algaes,..... They are following USA specs,

[Wei]

Hi porc,

you might be one of the few exception that is not going to patronize the shops/farms as they bring in illegal stuff.

I have seen alot of pple saying but do the opposite. Is everyone going to buy only the $18/kg fiji rocks from CF cos they got CITIES? I dun think so. Pple will still go for the cheap indonesia rocks although they know clearly it is smuggled in. The increase in demand in the hard corals/LR encourage them to take the risk to bring it in.

For yr info, Indonesia had placed an embargo on us for years. They will not be issuing CITIES to Singapore importer. That means one should not even buy any hard corals/clams that is from indonesia if he is really a hardcore responsible reefer.

Responsible reefers can be other meaning like good husbandry of yr tank and inhabitants. Avoid impulsive buy if u dun know what LS u buying/ dunno how to keep them. Not flushing Nemo & friends, etc.

I can dare to say that 99% of all reefers here have bought non-cities LS. The other 1% i can think of is they keep soft corals & use those $18per kg fiji rocks for their tank only.

The first thing to improve is we, reefers. We can insist on CITIES LS. Sure the shops/farms will listen. But be prepared to pay too cos corals with the CITIES isn't going to be cheap. I have seen a sad life example. The shop brought in a shipment of hard corals with CITIES. But they need to sell it at 50-60 due to the high cost. They are beautiful. But how many is willing to pay. He sold less than 15 pieces out of the many he brought in. Most rather go R*****, Txx, etc. Cheap, buy. End of the day, the poor shop owner had to clear them at a lost.

my 2 cent worth

Wei

[FuEl]

It's CITES not cities...

[Wei]

typo error.

[porc]

Hi Wei,

Thanks for your comments. I must admit that I'm still new to the reefing community here and there's a lot of historical info that I may not know... I'm glad to have learnt a lot from this thread...

I have seen alot of pple saying but do the opposite. Is everyone going to buy only the $18/kg fiji rocks from CF cos they got CITIES? I dun think so. Pple will still go for the cheap indonesia rocks although they know clearly it is smuggled in. The increase in demand in the hard corals/LR encourage them to take the risk to bring it in.

I didn't know that LR under CITES too. and why? what are we protecting? (someone care to enlighten and educate me?) Checked their website and dunno what LR would be classified under... Under Appendix II the listed ones are mainly the hard corals... Also, I feel that fiji rocks cannot be compared to normal LR, they are shaped differently in the first place which imposes a premium... your case would be stronger if fiji rocks were equivalent to the cheap indon rocks but yet cost so much difference... which brings me to my next point... would the CITES certification cause such a marked increase in price? The singapore permit costs $12 per SPECIES...

For yr info, Indonesia had placed an embargo on us for years. They will not be issuing CITIES to Singapore importer. That means one should not even buy any hard corals/clams that is from indonesia if he is really a hardcore responsible reefer.

oh this is new to me... petty politics involved... arrggh... hard to decide what is right here...

Responsible reefers can be other meaning like good husbandry of yr tank and inhabitants. Avoid impulsive buy if u dun know what LS u buying/ dunno how to keep them. Not flushing Nemo & friends, etc.

I agree 100%...

The first thing to improve is we, reefers. We can insist on CITIES LS. Sure the shops/farms will listen. But be prepared to pay too cos corals with the CITIES isn't going to be cheap. I have seen a sad life example. The shop brought in a shipment of hard corals with CITIES. But they need to sell it at 50-60 due to the high cost. They are beautiful. But how many is willing to pay. He sold less than 15 pieces out of the many he brought in. Most rather go R*****, Txx, etc. Cheap, buy. End of the day, the poor shop owner had to clear them at a lost.

No comments... Yes, we control the demand... I'm willing to do my part, and just hope that more reefers would think alike and resist the temptation...

Actually I'm having internal conflicts too... battle between the brain and the heart... arrggh....

Cheers,

Porc

[pacificbetta]

Why some importers are still doing it illegally is for the measly one hundred dollars cost-savings per shipment for the CITIES/AVA permit and better retail profits.

For the <dunno how many> times that I must repeat myself, it is not saving this $100 per shipment. It is the HOBBYIST who insists unrealistically what they want that is pushing the industry to "cheong". How many red scolymia and metallic green torch do you think the CITES allow for? And out of those the are allowed, given the prices in Singapore, how many will end up in Singapore?

BTW LR types that only can be sold legally are the types with algaes,..... They are following USA specs

In the US, soft coral imported with any significant LR as a base needs to be declared as "scleratinia". SG adopts their own standards, which unfortunately still have some loopholes.

would the CITES certification cause such a marked increase in price? The singapore permit costs $12 per SPECIES...

Yes, there will be a price increase, but not from the certification with AVA, more of the industry bidding for the limited CITES approved stocks, which drives up the prices of these corals in the first place.

[Achilles Tang]

It is the HOBBYIST who insists unrealistically what they want that is pushing the industry to "cheong".

Consumers ALWAYS want the best prices and the best variety & selection. It applies to EVERY aspect of the consumer market. Not just corals.

How about the industry.... tell me what do they want?

Why take the risk of 'cheonging'? Laziness? Foolhardiness? More profits? You tell me!

It's supply and demand. Demand is always there... but supply is not! So what's stopping LFS from complying with AVA/CITIES rules?

How many red scolymia and metallic green torch do you think the CITES allow for?

Interesting, didn't know that CITIES will specifiy the colours of corals in their quotas.

[pacificbetta]

So what's stopping LFS from complying with AVA/CITIES rules?

The market is simply not ready to pay for such goods. Until they are willing to look beyond the *immediate* benefits to their wallets, I do not see a way out for status quo. I myself have given up on trying to change the heck-care attitute that forms the majority of the public, explanantion is futile and more often than not, deepen the misunderstanding that the shop is pulling a fast one.

You want an example? Here is one. Green Bubble Coral, Plerogyra sinuosa (not Physogyra spp). How many here have expressively stated that they will only settle for bright green Plerogyra and nothing less? How many "consumers" here have hinted that the sale of certain other items (which helps sustain the brick and mortar of the industry) is contingent of the shop providing them with such specimens? And how many of you know that such specimens only occur in significant numbers in a certain part of Indonesia? Is it right for those individuals, even after knowing the truth, to blackmail the industry? Granted, not all cosnumers are like that, in my sampling there is a significant amount of such people. *Big Shame*

Interesting, didn't know that CITIES will specifiy the colours of corals in their quotas.

I typed wrongly. What I meant was that there are not enough red brains and metallic euphyllias to satisfy the demands of the market. A red scolymia sold under a CITES quota is very very expensive. Wholesale price is easily higher than present local retail.

[Achilles Tang]

Pacific Betta... you make it seem like it's totally the customers that are controlling the industry's decisions on how to run their businesses!

I have never heard of customers blackmailing LFS into selling them prized specimens cheaply in return for them buying other stuff that also helps sustain their business.

It still doesn't answer the BIG QUESTION "So what's stopping LFS from complying with AVA/CITIES rules?"

It's like the bus driver beating all the traffic lights and speed limit and trying to blame his behaviour on his passengers who need to get to work or home on time!

[RockyBoy]

It's like the bus driver beating all the traffic lights and speed limit and trying to blame his behaviour on his passengers who need to get to work or home on time!

What happens if one of the passengers needs to give birth and has to rush to hospital and beat the traffic light?

[pacificbetta]

Pacific Betta... you make it seem like it's totally the customers that are controlling the industry's decisions on how to run their businesses!

It always is the case. If a business is selling what the consumers do not want, the business go. If what the consumers want is unrealistic, the industry undergo re-org.

It's like the bus driver beating all the traffic lights and speed limit and trying to blame his behaviour on his passengers who need to get to work or home on time!

But what if his passengers threaten to use all the other bus services that is beating all the traffic lights if this driver does not match it? And what if this bus driver cannot afford to wait until the traffice police catches the errant bus-drivers that drive straight through the traffice lights? And what if when the traffic police catches one errant driver, suspends his license, but there are several other errant drivers to take up the slack? I see only one alternative, ie the bus driver go drive a taxi.

[RockyBoy]

But what if his passengers threaten to use all the other bus services that is beating all the traffic lights if this driver does not match it? And what if this bus driver cannot afford to wait until the traffice police catches the errant bus-drivers that drive straight through the traffice lights? And what if when the traffic police catches one errant driver, suspends his license, but there are several other errant drivers to take up the slack? I see only one alternative, ie the bus driver go drive a taxi.

Waahh . u good story teller

[aStRoBo|]

got ppl say the shuttle service no more to pasir ris farms. can anyone clarify that.. saw it at arofanatics.

[Maxima]

I'll like to add the realistic trurth:

Customer

-Want cheap & good corals

-95+% of cheapo reefers who do not want to invest in this hobby, most of these hobbyist should not even be in this hobby with lack of commitments financially & effort wise

-do not understand the raw basic and started jumping into the hobby, like big & cheap is good

-rush into buying corals they are not capable to maintain, their system, knowledge nor financially equip are upto the basic standard to cater to the specific coral.

- lack of patient....new stock of coral...rush & buy...who cares -> shoul have used those $$$ to do a proper setup & tank maturing

- Take a look at SRC since day-1, how many have come & go....talk about those corals & livestock that perish with these fools...........

LFS

-Most Equipment & LFS are not knowledgeable enough

-Equipment way too expensive - not enough serious reefers to sustain industry and also LFS don't see eye to eye for co-share equipment shipment cost.

-Most LFS system are not even capable of sustaining Ikan Bilis! Talk about corals..........Before we talk about quality & CITES, let's talk about system setup. It is like blaming your parent for failing your examinations.

-Lack of consistent supply of CITES coral result in more players bringing in illegal supplies to earn quick bucks. Another major problem is that Indonesia do not allow CITES into S'peore, as Indonesia goverment view S'pore making a quick buck being the middle man or what I would say the wiser businessman of trading Indo-Corals. I still feel that the best corals comes from Indo-Pacific Areas.........only that we don't get to see them, only occassionally some low quality *&%*%* shipment.

And to be blunt & hitting the nail to close the coffin. Some of the Illegal shipments are of better quality than the so call CITES stock Things that you cannot understand nor need to understand.

Max

[Achilles Tang]

Well, Maxima shot from the hip and the truth hurts. Both to the industry and the hobbyists.

PB,

I like your stories but the the question still remains unanswered "So what's stopping LFS from complying with AVA/CITIES rules?"

The answer's so pure and simple, there's no need to blame the customers. There's no arm-twisting from anyone to bring in 'cheong' corals, it all boils down to one thing... $$$ making.

For the record, how each business runs its business is none of my business. They have to answer to the AVA for any AVA/CITIES violations.

This ridiculous rumour has no grounds to implicate us because there is simply no motivation or motive for a hobby club/me to be whistleblowers unless we fashion ourselves into an extremist conservation society like Greenpeace or PETA.

Maybe they should point their fingers at the same conservation group that is trying to force Sentosa to free their pink dolphins.

And as Max has rightly pointed out, we all have to solve our own problems before trying to rectify how the industry works (a task that the industry themselves have to do).

SRC's mission is to make sure that each reefer knows what the priorities are as a hobbyist when it comes to down to purchasing livestock and being responsible in ensuring that these get maximum care with the acquiring of good knowledge coupled with investment in good equipment to make up for possible lack of experience and husbandry skills.

[pacificbetta]

I think Max's statement was already implied in my previous quoted example.

My opinion still remains that until there remains a firm market for CITES items, the industry will remain as such. And until the market corrects itself, there is no point clamouring for the industry to change. The industry goes where the $ are.

[Achilles Tang]

So which came first.... the chicken or the egg?

[andysho]

if it talks about protecting corals .. i dun think so~~~

what about those culling of cats? arent they doing mass killing too~~~

[pospeh]

I agree with Max on this.

Customers and owners are both contributing to this problem.

I would guess that more than half of the sps corals being bought (CITES or Non-CITES declared) are bought by hobbiests that really have no business buying them at all because they dont have the right water/lighting parameters. These buyers may just want to "try" it out, or it is a spur of the moment thing, so they are just looking for some cheap stuff that is within their budget.

And to cater to this vast market, some LFS invariably bring in cheaper Non-CITES stock to satisfy the demand.

[FuEl]

You all should feel glad that corals are coming in with CITES...at least they are not banned totally.

Be glad that there are enough marine hobbyists here to sustain the marine hobby.

Some things you want get here with CITES permit and all the necessary paper work also cannot.