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Anyone know what fish is this

klim

By klim,
in FOWLR (Fish-only with Live-rock)

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Terryz_ Newbie

Terryz_

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Scat is found in local water and not a foreign species.. So there is no problem of releasing them into the local sea... Not asking you to release a foreign species like red ear terrapins which is not found in singapore ecosystem and destroying the ecosystem...

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Kakani Newbie

Kakani

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Even if you caught from the sea or if it is a local species, still I do not recommend releasing. It may harbour some pathogens that is not found in our local ecosystem, possibly wiping out local population if it is extremely contagious.

Wah how does this fish going to harbour our pathogens and wipe out local population???? Are we releasing a shark?

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Terryz_ Newbie

Terryz_

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Even if you caught from the sea or if it is a local species, still I do not recommend releasing. It may harbour some pathogens that is not found in our local ecosystem, possibly wiping out local population if it is extremely contagious.

Pathogen like? If it is harboring pathogen, I dun think it will be able to survive long in captively and I mean "our local water:" is not a enclosed environment like the a lake or catchment area which there is a chance if there is a disease outbreak, it will affect the whole lake ecosystem. Anyway they are brackish water fishes, which are found at the outlet to the sea, the chance of the pathogen spreading in very minimal as the water volume is too big, the exact reason why fishes dun get ich in the wild unless you can find a fish with ich in the wild then I take back my words.

I only hear about wild caught fishes infecting captive bred and tank raised fishes.. Not the other way round... Maybe some expert can shed some light on these?

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MadScientist Newbie

MadScientist

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We do not know marine pathogens extremely well. Captive fish may be partially immune to them. No symptom doesn't mean they are not a carrier.

1 recent article :

Imagine you go toilet, wipe butt, never wash clean, go feed fish. Fish carries the pathogen. You release to sea. Pathogen grows and overwhelms the local population. There's quite a few articles on captive fish causing outbreaks in wild. Google them. If a wild fish can cause an outbreak in a captive tank, what makes you think the opposite can't happen? A tank may have limited space, but they have limited biomass as well. In the wild, the biomass is much larger. If the local population meets a foreign pathogen which they have no immunity to, it can spread like wildfire. For an exaggerated simulation, please proceed to the nearest cinema to get ticket for resident evil: retribution.

Remember, pathogens are not like toxins.Huge volume of water has limited effects to their spread. That's what makes bio weapons much more effective than chemical weapons.

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Terryz_ Newbie

Terryz_

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Yes, there is a possibility but the chances are very slim.. Our captive tank is enclosed environment, the water is circulating in the fixed amount of water, no matter how you change water, there is still parasite such as ich in the system.. It is not like a open ocean where the ich might be present but not able to spread to the whole ocean and not visible, but after you catch the fish with ich in a enclosed environment, it reproduce and live in the tank and infecting all the fishes in the tank which will not happen in the wild as the parasite will take time to infect fishes, even if it is able to find a host within their short lifespan, the seriousness of the infection is not very serious as they already have immunity ..

Pathogen are not toxin but they are still being dispersed and can spread but take in mind they are living thing and have a lifespan and if they dun have ecological competence or not able to survive in the ecology they will be dead, most pathogen exist becos of a certain requirement that is present in the host..

It makes no sense that the volume or space dun make any difference, The density of the pathogen in a 5litre and a 50litre is different.. The fishes in a 5 litre is likely to get infected more easily that a 50 litre one... It is the same as you fart in the lift, everyone can smell but if you fart in the a shopping mall, only those surrounding you will get to smell it but as it disperse it get less and less smelly..

If you are not very supportive of releasing a fish back into the wild even in their own environment, I guess you are not a supporter of any animal/marine rehabilitation center which rehabilitate injured wild animal and releasing them back into the wild... There is also a chance that the animal is carrying pathogen from us human and release into the wild..

Intraspecies transmission is very slim as most pathogen will have to go thru a evolution to adapt to the new host, like the avian Influenza, transmission from birds to pigs and then to us.. But the pathogen is of a different strain everytime..

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MadScientist Newbie

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Yes, there is a possibility but the chances are very slim.. Our captive tank is enclosed environment, the water is circulating in the fixed amount of water, no matter how you change water, there is still parasite such as ich in the system.. It is not like a open ocean where the ich might be present but not able to spread to the whole ocean and not visible, but after you catch the fish with ich in a enclosed environment, it reproduce and live in the tank and infecting all the fishes in the tank which will not happen in the wild as the parasite will take time to infect fishes, even if it is able to find a host within their short lifespan, the seriousness of the infection is not very serious as they already have immunity ..

Pathogen are not toxin but they are still being dispersed and can spread but take in mind they are living thing and have a lifespan and if they dun have ecological competence or not able to survive in the ecology they will be dead, most pathogen exist becos of a certain requirement that is present in the host..

It makes no sense that the volume or space dun make any difference, The density of the pathogen in a 5litre and a 50litre is different.. The fishes in a 5 litre is likely to get infected more easily that a 50 litre one... It is the same as you fart in the lift, everyone can smell but if you fart in the a shopping mall, only those surrounding you will get to smell it but as it disperse it get less and less smelly..

If you are not very supportive of releasing a fish back into the wild even in their own environment, I guess you are not a supporter of any animal/marine rehabilitation center which rehabilitate injured wild animal and releasing them back into the wild... There is also a chance that the animal is carrying pathogen from us human and release into the wild..

Intraspecies transmission is very slim as most pathogen will have to go thru a evolution to adapt to the new host, like the avian Influenza, transmission from birds to pigs and then to us.. But the pathogen is of a different strain everytime..

Bro, your fart does not replicate /reproduce. Pathogens do. Let's take the sars for example. Hong Kong is larger than us. Apparently, sars cases there are more numerous than us. In epidemiology, host density, immunity and movement is much more critical than space between them. Once you are infected, it does not mean you are always conferred with immunity. If you look at many human diseases, most pathogens have the ability to transmit to other hosts while the infected host has no obvious symptom.

If you noticed, quite a number of marine ecosystems comprise of reefs. Those are very densely packed in a small area, allowing very rapid spread of pathogens to susceptible hosts. The very large volume of water in the oceans may not have such a great advantage as you may have imagined. Reefers rarely keep open sea fish species, hence, releasing of infected fish may pose a problem.

Fish moves. The 5 vs 50L doesn't make much difference if it is swimming actively around. Some fish does not show symptom when it is chronically infected with a low level of pathogen. Those pathogens do not have a lifespan as the population is maintained by constant death and reproduction. Some pathogens can exist as spores which can be extremely resilent.

I am not talking (focused) about fish to corals. Intraspecies transmission does happen rather frequently. Pathogens reproduce and mutate very frequently. HIV, CJD, H1N1, etc. That's one of their mechanisma for species survival. They have to cross infect for a much better chance of survival, and mutation is a tool they use to achieve that and increase virulence.

If there's a marine spca in singapore, i would love to help out. I don't recall spca releasing their animals back into the wild.

Name me a legitimate lab that releases their bacteria back into the wild after their research, even if they are harmless.

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Terryz_ Newbie

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Bro, your fart does not replicate /reproduce. Pathogens do. Let's take the sars for example. Hong Kong is larger than us. Apparently, sars cases there are more numerous than us. In epidemiology, host density, immunity and movement is much more critical than space between them. Once you are infected, it does not mean you are always conferred with immunity. If you look at many human diseases, most pathogens have the ability to transmit to other hosts while the infected host has no obvious symptom.

Yes, I know, most pathogen can transmit to other host even on the their current host.. There are various factors, i guess, saw a paper on the influenza before they place some infected stock some healthy ones but there is no signs of any transmission from the sick one to the healthy but that is only 1 case, so it might be transmitted only a few ways.. I think the SARS is more evident in HK because they are a larger country with a large number which makes tracking the host difficult before they have some contact with some ppl and I think it depends on the person? I am not sure if everyone is infect when the host walks around...

If you noticed, quite a number of marine ecosystems comprise of reefs. Those are very densely packed in a small area, allowing very rapid spread of pathogens to susceptible hosts. The very large volume of water in the oceans may not have such a great advantage as you may have imagined. Reefers rarely keep open sea fish species, hence, releasing of infected fish may pose a problem.

Not talking about open sea fish species, what will happen if you release a ich infected or velvet infected fish into the sea? Other fishes get infected???

Fish moves. The 5 vs 50L doesn't make much difference if it is swimming actively around. Some fish does not show symptom when it is chronically infected with a low level of pathogen. Those pathogens do not have a lifespan as the population is maintained by constant death and reproduction. Some pathogens can exist as spores which can be extremely resilent.

But the density of the pathogen is not the same? They have a lifespan, you said constant death and reproduction.. I know fungi pathogen can exist as spores and wait for the correct requirement to hatch and grow.

I am not talking (focused) about fish to corals. Intraspecies transmission does happen rather frequently. Pathogens reproduce and mutate very frequently. HIV, CJD, H1N1, etc. That's one of their mechanisma for species survival. They have to cross infect for a much better chance of survival, and mutation is a tool they use to achieve that and increase virulence.

Yup, But I know, the same case as H1N1.. But they have to be able to adapt first but i think most of them can adapt well..

If there's a marine spca in singapore, i would love to help out. I don't recall spca releasing their animals back into the wild.

Not talking about SPCA, I dun really support SPCA also) but some other countries center that rehab injured turtles, penguin and etc and release them back into the wild when they are more healthy and healed.. We cant know what pathogen they are carrying also, so they taking a risk with the actions they take..

Name me a legitimate lab that releases their bacteria back into the wild after their research, even if they are harmless.

Why are we on this?

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