Mini reef tank fit for a mad scientist

[MadScientist]

Purple dart too shy. Maybe he needs a partner, haha

Rockwork looks lousy due to limited selections of free rocks, courtesy of Aquamarin.

Unfortunately, bought an expensive refractometer due to lack of cheap stock from Aquamarin, =(

[MadScientist]

After feeding rotifiers, mushrooms shrank for more than an hour.

Did a 50% wc to reduce the nitrate.

[MadScientist]

Organic carbon dosing for nano tank:

Day 0:

50% water change was performed . Specific gravity (SG) is @ 1.025. (measured with Trans-instrument Portable Refractometer [T1-RSAT0100A] calibrated with distilled water @ 25 degree celsius [Total Dissolved Solids: 0ppm {measured with Hanna Instruments TDS 1 meter calibrated with Milli-Q water @ 18.2 MOhmns.cm @ 25 degree celcius}] followed by calibration verification using American Pinpoint Salinity Calibration fluid [sG: 1.026] @ 25 degree celsius; no recalibration was necessary after initial SG 1.000 calibration point)

Added 1 part 5% of acetic-citric acid with 999 parts saltwater from tank (total vol 50 ml)

Set drip to 12 hours (approximately 1drop/min)

Day 1:

Mushroom corals reacted badly; all specimens perished. Water remained clear. All fishes (2 percular clownfish, 1 purple dartfish) and crabs (2 tiny hitchhikers, species unknown) survived. Sun coral remains unextended. Performed a 50% water change followed immediately by a 25% water change.

SG remained @ 1.025.

Experiment halted due to loss of specimens.

Conclusion:

In a nano setting, the setup (buffering system, skimmer, etc) may prove inadequate for the support of the increased bacterial population enhanced by the dosed organic carbon sources. Possibility of the failure of the dosing scheme may be due to low DO, low pH/alkalinity, overdosage of organic carbon sources, contamination of organic carbon sources, or a combination of factors. It is difficult for an average aquarist to dose such an organic carbon sources in small volumes of water. Dilution of organic sources to allow for gradual introduction of the organic carbon sources without upsetting pH and alkalinity may prove difficult without the use of bacteriostatic agent as such an introduction scheme requires large dilution factors, which will encourage bacterial growth in the drip reservoir.

Further evaluations may be conducted when the test kits for pH and alkalinity arrives.

[kaykay]

Hey bro, you keeping corals and fishes, or conducting science experiments? Lol..

[MadScientist]

Both? haha, trying to open the pandora box of reefing,

[MadScientist]

nitrate level: 5ppm (top down view of reaction chamber), verified with side wall view of 50/10ppm (Salifert Nitrate Profi Test; Batch: Unknown; Expiry 11-2014)

[Terryz_]

Bro, I know you are trying to find out but there is another way of doing research without involving actual hands-on and risking the lives of your fishes,, Not saying I have not killed anything but before you do any hands-on there must be ample research by asking or looking for information before you try it out as other might have done it before and failed, you are just going down the same road..

For this specific "Experiment" that you have done, have been done before.. And it is being discussed before, if you done enough searching you should find it.. As I have tried it too, but due to the facts that time I was not made known, I did carbon dosing on my nano and the fishes reacted very badly to it, even the corals are stressed.. Due to the sudden increase in the bacteria count and the reduction of the oxygen and DOC for the bacteria usage and becos of the low water volume, the bacteria count will drastically drop becos there is a certain 'Limit' to the amount of bacteria the water column can hold and thus the spike in ammonia and nitrite and the corals will be the first to be affected as some fishes can tolerate small ammonia spikes..

And you are using unstable acetic/citric acid as your carbon dosing, they are having extremely low ph as low as 2 and dosing it even in small amount will have drastic effect on the ph in small water volume as the ph is calculated exponentially..That is another cause for the death of your corals. And I dunno if you have read, Vitamin C will degrade as soon as it comes into contact with water without any preservatives, so dosing it over 12 hours, it is not doing anything other than reducing your water ph.

It is possible to do carbon dosing in Nano tank but the dosage must be very precise and only the usage of Stable Asborcate Sodium not Ascorbic Acid... I have done for a subsequent nano tank, the dosing is as precise as a few gram only..

[MadScientist]

Bro, I know you are trying to find out but there is another way of doing research without involving actual hands-on and risking the lives of your fishes,, Not saying I have not killed anything but before you do any hands-on there must be ample research by asking or looking for information before you try it out as other might have done it before and failed, you are just going down the same road..

For this specific "Experiment" that you have done, have been done before.. And it is being discussed before, if you done enough searching you should find it.. As I have tried it too, but due to the facts that time I was not made known, I did carbon dosing on my nano and the fishes reacted very badly to it, even the corals are stressed.. Due to the sudden increase in the bacteria count and the reduction of the oxygen and DOC for the bacteria usage and becos of the low water volume, the bacteria count will drastically drop becos there is a certain 'Limit' to the amount of bacteria the water column can hold and thus the spike in ammonia and nitrite and the corals will be the first to be affected as some fishes can tolerate small ammonia spikes..

And you are using unstable acetic/citric acid as your carbon dosing, they are having extremely low ph as low as 2 and dosing it even in small amount will have drastic effect on the ph in small water volume as the ph is calculated exponentially..That is another cause for the death of your corals. And I dunno if you have read, Vitamin C will degrade as soon as it comes into contact with water without any preservatives, so dosing it over 12 hours, it is not doing anything other than reducing your water ph.

It is possible to do carbon dosing in Nano tank but the dosage must be very precise and only the usage of Stable Asborcate Sodium not Ascorbic Acid... I have done for a subsequent nano tank, the dosing is as precise as a few gram only..

Bro, I did a search before doing the test. No one is doing it with a 3L water volume?

Why the sudden jump from vinegar to vitamin c? Acetic and citric acid is not ascorbic acid. 5% of acetic acid will cause a pH of 2? Even when I diluted it to 0.005%? Acetic acid is an organic acid. Most organic acids are weak acids; they do not disassociate completely in the presence of water. Commercial distilled vinegar found in supermarket has a pH ranging from 2.4-3.4. Vitamin C will degrade as soon as it touches water? Either the lemon is very dry or the doctors and nutritionists lied about lemons having vitamin c. One may say the preservatives found in lemon is critic acid, that I agree. If critic acid is that unstable, the vitamin c in lemon will be degraded within 12 hours after it is grown?

If the acid is degraded, how is it going to affect the pH of the tank water?

I agree there is a certain limit of the amount of bacteria that the water can hold. If you see very matured sewage water, that's roughly the amount. I can safely say the visibility through the water is less than a few cm and no higher lifeforms can really exist in it. If that's the case, all my fishes would have flipped?

I see no reason why one cannot revisit something that has been done before. It is through the revisitings that numerous discoveries were remade and corrected. Revisitings also allow for verification of results. This methodology is called science?

Dosing sodium ascorbate can be dangerous in a nano tank due to the increase in sodium ions which may increase salinity.

One can say this can be a cause, that can be a cause, even a fart a thousand miles away could have caused the failure (butterfly effect?) By doing this and comparing the results with others, we may find the exact cause and maybe come up with a solution. Imagine how many nano tanks one can save from the hands of numerous new reefers.

Anyway, someone is intending to take fishes to space and they most probably won't release to the wild or return them to earth.

Going down the same road reinforces the path. Eventually, it will create a path that leads to results. Try telling the ants not to do that?

As for the results, mine differs from yours in that my fishes were not even stressed out. My protein skimmer remains normal, there's no excessive skim-mate and the water is very clear. It is very strange that only mushroom corals were affected. All the other non-photosynthetic lifeforms were not visibly affected. The coralline algae still looks purplish and reddish.

[MadScientist]

It seems that other reefers have noticed that some corals are affected much more by the carbon dosing than others and some are not really affected. However, there is lack of data to conclude which species are not compatible with carbon dosing.

Anyone dosing np pellets in nano tanks? I would like to seek your observations in regards to leeching/ breaking off of carbon from the pellets.

[Terryz_]

Bro, I did a search before doing the test. No one is doing it with a 3L water volume? Why the sudden jump from vinegar to vitamin c? Acetic and citric acid is not ascorbic acid. 5% of acetic acid will cause a pH of 2? Even when I diluted it to 0.005%? Acetic acid is an organic acid. Most organic acids are weak acids; they do not disassociate completely in the presence of water. Commercial distilled vinegar found in supermarket has a pH ranging from 2.4-3.4. Vitamin C will degrade as soon as it touches water? Either the lemon is very dry or the doctors and nutritionists lied about lemons having vitamin c. One may say the preservatives found in lemon is critic acid, that I agree. If critic acid is that unstable, the vitamin c in lemon will be degraded within 12 hours after it is grown? If the acid is degraded, how is it going to affect the pH of the tank water? I agree there is a certain limit of the amount of bacteria that the water can hold. If you see very matured sewage water, that's roughly the amount. I can safely say the visibility through the water is less than a few cm and no higher lifeforms can really exist in it. If that's the case, all my fishes would have flipped? I see no reason why one cannot revisit something that has been done before. It is through the revisitings that numerous discoveries were remade and corrected. Revisitings also allow for verification of results. This methodology is called science? Dosing sodium ascorbate can be dangerous in a nano tank due to the increase in sodium ions which may increase salinity. One can say this can be a cause, that can be a cause, even a fart a thousand miles away could have caused the failure (butterfly effect?) By doing this and comparing the results with others, we may find the exact cause and maybe come up with a solution. Imagine how many nano tanks one can save from the hands of numerous new reefers. Anyway, someone is intending to take fishes to space and they most probably won't release to the wild or return them to earth. Going down the same road reinforces the path. Eventually, it will create a path that leads to results. Try telling the ants not to do that? As for the results, mine differs from yours in that my fishes were not even stressed out. My protein skimmer remains normal, there's no excessive skim-mate and the water is very clear. It is very strange that only mushroom corals were affected. All the other non-photosynthetic lifeforms were not visibly affected. The coralline algae still looks purplish and reddish.

It is still carbon dosing, be it citric acid, vinegar or vodka... Bro, no offences, I said it is the acid that have ph as low as 2 not the water after you have added... It is too complication calculation for me... Not a maths person.. But I remembered if calculated in log base of 10 so if you dilute it to 0.005%, it is might still cause some changes in a small volume in your case... Maybe I should say oxidation/reduction of Vitamin C in water as water is a catalyst of oxidation becos they contain oxygen molecules that will cause oxidation of the vitamin C, and Vitamin C oxide readily when in contact with air, the lemon and orange internal are not in contact with air, but it is shown that if the juice is stored at 4 C it can be stored up to 4 weeks before it loses all the vitamin nutrients.

As for affecting the part after being oxided, It is not as reactive but the oxidation is progressive as when you dose in the first few hours the pH might still be low... I used to read that they say that most in normal temperature, within 8 hours, it would be used up by the bacteria in your tank..I guess it is supported by bacteria count...

Murky water doesnt always mean the bacteria concentration is high, it might be due to sediment and other particulate.. I dunno about the bacteria count in sewage water but one thing is certain, there are bad bacteria and pathogen inside... The one we are promoting for nutrient reducing are the denitrifying bacterias which use be able to use carbon in conjunction with nitrate and phosphate...

As for science, taken from a quote I heard from a recent science seminar that I attended, If we are able to find novel discoveries in our hobby/classroom (in my context), where the scientist took a life time to discover, that would bring shame to the scientist who spent a lifetime and we just found out thru being passionate about our hobby and teaching students.

And there is many other ways of doing the experiements without the usage of lifeforms exception of bacteria and micro-organism.. There are testkit out there that you can use to test for the different outcomes, pH and etc... You still can monitor the changes in the parameters... No fishes and corals involved, only LR and cycled water..

Yes, I know, it is a known knowledge to all that dosing sodium ascorbate increase the salinity overtime, but if you doing water change and top up weekly it is difficult not to detect any changes in the salinity, some that blindly follow others might not know this..

Ya, I know, it will help to find the exact cause but if it can be done in another way instead of this way, it would be better right... If you want to check how long can a person survive smoking, would you get a baby to start smoking and see how long they live, not all experiment require a live organism to conduct, yes, some inevitable we have to use live organism such as mouse and etc.. And all the data that we get as from how long a person can live with smoking daily, is all based on past cases and studies, are you saying all these are not accurate and we should try it on a human to be accurate? That is the same as what you are doing, with all the past experiment and research, be it accompanied by professional equipment or not, there are several result already...

But there are results already, becos it is not a very important or breakthrough technology, scientist are not keen in going thru all the trouble of getting all the equipment, just to find out something that trivial as what happens to the organism if something is dosed into a tank. Ants based it on their instinct, they are born to do that instinctively, we have a working mind, we no need to go down all the paths that others have gone down and shown results, failure or success.. Taking reference from them is enough to keep a decent tank...

Actually very subjective if they are stressed out or not, LOL, I once told my fren, I think my fishes are quite happy as they get food and interaction in the tank, but they could be more happy in the wild... Subjective? It all depends on how the fish takes it, some might be able to tolerate it, some will just flip at the slightest change..

Becos I think you dosed by dripping the increase of the bacteria not a sudden increase, so the water is still clear and not much skimmate as the die off and waste is not a mass one.. If you dose one shot, you should see the effect on the tank water(first few rounds) and the skimmate.. Not photosynthetic corals, love the increase in bacterias, so they are not really affect.. Think coraline not that sensitive..

[Terryz_]

It seems that other reefers have noticed that some corals are affected much more by the carbon dosing than others and some are not really affected. However, there is lack of data to conclude which species are not compatible with carbon dosing. Anyone dosing np pellets in nano tanks? I would like to seek your observations in regards to leeching/ breaking off of carbon from the pellets.

It all depends on the coral reaction to the bacteria bloom, there is nothing such as compatible or not, or if your meaning of compatible is some corals can tolerate or some species cannot tolerate, then there is...

Using BP in nano tank will not have adverse effects on the bacteria count as it is still isolated in the reactor and the increase in a steadily increase depends on your flowrate, if you are talking about the pellets that go into your tank, as long as there is flow, the pellet will melt as the bacteria uses them up..

[MadScientist]

It all depends on the coral reaction to the bacteria bloom, there is nothing such as compatible or not, or if your meaning of compatible is some corals can tolerate or some species cannot tolerate, then there is... Using BP in nano tank will not have adverse effects on the bacteria count as it is still isolated in the reactor and the increase in a steadily increase depends on your flowrate, if you are talking about the pellets that go into your tank, as long as there is flow, the pellet will melt as the bacteria uses them up..

Yup, that's what I meant.

It seems that the pellets do break off due to the constant agitation (very tiny fragments) and the partial dissolution may lead to the material of the biopellet leeching to somewhere else in the tank. There's a few cases of increased cyanobacteria growth out of the reactors for some tanks that's running a biopellet reactor. For a big tank, this is of no concern, for a 3L tank, I suppose it could be a big concern. I am attempting to solidify acetic acid to reduce its acute effects on pH and to contain the dosing into a reactor, this may allow for a safer "dosing" in a small tank.

The reason why I used a combination of acetic and critic acid is due to the fact that all the vinegar I have are a mixture of these 2 acids. I have acquired a bottle of vinegar that states diluted acetic acid, and I do hope the content matches the label.

In order to test the solid acetic acid, I will be setting up a tank with a volume of approximately 0.5L. The aim of the test is to determine the effects of the binder polymer on the water parameters and the "skimma-bility" of the polymer-laden water.

[klim]

Bro, it pain me when I see death to any LS, especially when you are doing experiment.

I believed you brought the LS from our fellow reefer and when they see what happened to the LS passed over, I am sure it sadden their heart.

I have seen you asking and buying stuff, but with what you have shown is too much of a brutal to those precious LS. Pls be kind to them and give them a good home instead of a laboratory using for experience.

If I have said anything that I offend you I apologized but pls pls help Saving Gaia.

Thanks!

Kelvin Lim

[MadScientist]

Bro, it pain me when I see death to any LS, especially when you are doing experiment.

I believed you brought the LS from our fellow reefer and when they see what happened to the LS passed over, I am sure it sadden their heart.

I have seen you asking and buying stuff, but with what you have shown is too much of a brutal to those precious LS. Pls be kind to them and give them a good home instead of a laboratory using for experience.

If I have said anything that I offend you I apologized but pls pls help Saving Gaia.

Thanks!

Kelvin Lim

Bro, the pieces that died came from lfs? I think they are more than happy.

If you realised, literally most deaths are caused by human factors (ignorance, errors, negligence). For every reefer, there's at least a death under his/her belt.

If it really pains you, you shouldn't be here, you should leave it to the expert (mother nature) and stick with nat geo or bbc?

Every tank is an experiment. How many times have we decided to play "god" and decided to go for a wc, add additives, having parameters not found in nature? Be it novice or experts, sometimes, our decisions may cause some death or torture to the specimens. How many times have we caused adverse reactions to them? We withdraw our hands when we feel pain. Imagine when the corals are withdrawing their polyps, this is exactly what they felt.

I am only being conscious enough to admit I am conducting an experiment(conscious in the sense that I know i am playing "god", trying out something and hoping for good results). Every reefer is doing experiment every single time they add or remove something in their tank, be it lifestock, additives, water, equipment, etc.

By supporting the lfs, we are supporting killing. There's bound to be death in every batch of livestocks. For every captive breeding experiment, there's bound to be death. For every coral food you feed, the manufacturers have to ditch tons of nutritious waste into the ocean, leading to possible death in reefs near the discharge.

The best home is in the oceans, my friend. If you really feel the way you described, please do give up your tank(s) and stick to documentaries. I know of a few armchair reefers, and I do respect them, a lot.

Sorry if I sounded mean, that's hard, cold facts.To add on, sometimes when I see reefers having those huge tanks, i begin to think why is there a piece of ocean in the wrong place? That piece could have been in the ocean and contributing to the ecology beneficially. By being on land, they are using more than necessary resources to be alive, leading to further ecological destruction. I am not noble, and I do not admit that I am, in any sense, noble. What i am doing may seem cruel to you. I cannot deny that. Please take a pause, step back and see that everyone of us is equally cruel and doing exactly what I am doing. Most just didn't tag it as experiment.

[Terryz_]

Bro, the pieces that died came from lfs? I think they are more than happy.

If you realised, literally most deaths are caused by human factors (ignorance, errors, negligence). For every reefer, there's at least a death under his/her belt.

If it really pains you, you shouldn't be here, you should leave it to the expert (mother nature) and stick with nat geo or bbc?

Every tank is an experiment. How many times have we decided to play "god" and decided to go for a wc, add additives, having parameters not found in nature? Be it novice or experts, sometimes, our decisions may cause some death or torture to the specimens. How many times have we caused adverse reactions to them? We withdraw our hands when we feel pain. Imagine when the corals are withdrawing their polyps, this is exactly what they felt.

I am only being conscious enough to admit I am conducting an experiment(conscious in the sense that I know i am playing "god", trying out something and hoping for good results). Every reefer is doing experiment every single time they add or remove something in their tank, be it lifestock, additives, water, equipment, etc.

By supporting the lfs, we are supporting killing. There's bound to be death in every batch of livestocks. For every captive breeding experiment, there's bound to be death. For every coral food you feed, the manufacturers have to ditch tons of nutritious waste into the ocean, leading to possible death in reefs near the discharge.

The best home is in the oceans, my friend. If you really feel the way you described, please do give up your tank(s) and stick to documentaries. I know of a few armchair reefers, and I do respect them, a lot.

Sorry if I sounded mean, that's hard, cold facts.To add on, sometimes when I see reefers having those huge tanks, i begin to think why is there a piece of ocean in the wrong place? That piece could have been in the ocean and contributing to the ecology beneficially. By being on land, they are using more than necessary resources to be alive, leading to further ecological destruction. I am not noble, and I do not admit that I am, in any sense, noble. What i am doing may seem cruel to you. I cannot deny that. Please take a pause, step back and see that everyone of us is equally cruel and doing exactly what I am doing. Most just didn't tag it as experiment.

Every tank is an experiment? Then a public aquarium or a zoo enclosure would be also an experiment and should be closed down in your perspective... Water change and adding additives is to replace and replenish the elements that are used up by the corals and fishes in the tank, NOT doing these you are causing stress and torturing the corals becos the lack of elements and non-ideal water parameter... All sorts of elements are found in seawater(Exception of medication), even copper, so basically there is nothing on the market that is not found in seawater and all these products have been in the market for years, so they not good and causing problems to home aquaria, I highly doubt so as if that is the case, they would not be in the market for so long..

As for corals, I am not a expert to say they have or dun have sensory nerves, but they close due to a lot of factors, stress, protection(a lot close becos of predator, it is a reflex action), lighting and etc,, I dun think most of the corals withdraw their polyps due to feeling pain, it is more of a survival instinct..

Conducting experiment is good but the point is removing the use of living things, you are using living things as experiments and these fishes and corals are not bred for that purpose, unlike white mouses which are bred for experiment purposes... I agree that everytime you buy a fish or corals, it is an experiment but if you have done enough research, you would know what fishes that you have bought and how to care for it and whether it is compatible in your tank... I admit I always buy weird fishes that are difficult to get feeding and some i managed to keep alive and some died but there are previous evidences and sources that show success...

Your results can be tested in a bare tank with no fishes and corals, with the use of monitors and testkits...

Captive breeding, that is for good causes and undeniably for profit, the deaths of the spawns has got nothing to do with environment, If there is no captive breeding and no aquaculture, the reefs will be more in risk in the future as the captive breeding is showing very good progression...

I dunno where you got the idea that all the fish food and corals foods that we used, the manufacturers are ditching waste into the sea, we have no ideas of what they are doing unless you are working there and you have evidences..

You are contradicting yourself in your last paragraph, you feel that a huge tank is in a wrong place on land, but your nano is not??? For your information a bigger tank is easier to maintain than a nano tank..

Everyone in the world that is keeping pets are destroying the ecology in some way, but what is different is what ppl do to give the best for their pets and not experimenting with them. There are enough research and cases studies out there that can give you enough for keeping a decent tank without having to experiment anything..

We are not professional scientist or researcher, we dun have the necessary equipments, permits, research papers and experiences to do all these, even if we can see some results, it is not even considered valid and there are a lot of things that are left unexplained...

[Terryz_]

Yup, that's what I meant. It seems that the pellets do break off due to the constant agitation (very tiny fragments) and the partial dissolution may lead to the material of the biopellet leeching to somewhere else in the tank. There's a few cases of increased cyanobacteria growth out of the reactors for some tanks that's running a biopellet reactor. For a big tank, this is of no concern, for a 3L tank, I suppose it could be a big concern. I am attempting to solidify acetic acid to reduce its acute effects on pH and to contain the dosing into a reactor, this may allow for a safer "dosing" in a small tank. The reason why I used a combination of acetic and critic acid is due to the fact that all the vinegar I have are a mixture of these 2 acids. I have acquired a bottle of vinegar that states diluted acetic acid, and I do hope the content matches the label. In order to test the solid acetic acid, I will be setting up a tank with a volume of approximately 0.5L. The aim of the test is to determine the effects of the binder polymer on the water parameters and the "skimma-bility" of the polymer-laden water.

The increase in cyanobacteria is becos the cyanobacteria are feeding off the carbon source from bp..The biopellet will not leech any thing back into the tank, it will just melt even if it escape into the main tank.. It is still the same even you try to dry the vinegar, have to do something about the hydrogen bond if not wrong, I dunno if even we can get the equipment without a lab environment...

I dunno what are you trying to test here, carbon dosing does not have binding effects on the water parameter, the bacteria make use of the carbon source with the Nitrate and Phosphates, that is why the Nitrate and Phosphate will reduce.. If I am not mistaken from my knowledge, polymer laden water will be able to bind dirt and particles and thus will be skimmed out easily by skimmer..

[MadScientist]

Every tank is an experiment? Then a public aquarium or a zoo enclosure would be also an experiment and should be closed down in your perspective... Water change and adding additives is to replace and replenish the elements that are used up by the corals and fishes in the tank, NOT doing these you are causing stress and torturing the corals becos the lack of elements and non-ideal water parameter... All sorts of elements are found in seawater(Exception of medication), even copper, so basically there is nothing on the market that is not found in seawater and all these products have been in the market for years, so they not good and causing problems to home aquaria, I highly doubt so as if that is the case, they would not be in the market for so long..

As for corals, I am not a expert to say they have or dun have sensory nerves, but they close due to a lot of factors, stress, protection(a lot close becos of predator, it is a reflex action), lighting and etc,, I dun think most of the corals withdraw their polyps due to feeling pain, it is more of a survival instinct..

Conducting experiment is good but the point is removing the use of living things, you are using living things as experiments and these fishes and corals are not bred for that purpose, unlike white mouses which are bred for experiment purposes... I agree that everytime you buy a fish or corals, it is an experiment but if you have done enough research, you would know what fishes that you have bought and how to care for it and whether it is compatible in your tank... I admit I always buy weird fishes that are difficult to get feeding and some i managed to keep alive and some died but there are previous evidences and sources that show success...

Your results can be tested in a bare tank with no fishes and corals, with the use of monitors and testkits...

Captive breeding, that is for good causes and undeniably for profit, the deaths of the spawns has got nothing to do with environment, If there is no captive breeding and no aquaculture, the reefs will be more in risk in the future as the captive breeding is showing very good progression...

I dunno where you got the idea that all the fish food and corals foods that we used, the manufacturers are ditching waste into the sea, we have no ideas of what they are doing unless you are working there and you have evidences..

You are contradicting yourself in your last paragraph, you feel that a huge tank is in a wrong place on land, but your nano is not??? For your information a bigger tank is easier to maintain than a nano tank..

Everyone in the world that is keeping pets are destroying the ecology in some way, but what is different is what ppl do to give the best for their pets and not experimenting with them. There are enough research and cases studies out there that can give you enough for keeping a decent tank without having to experiment anything..

We are not professional scientist or researcher, we dun have the necessary equipments, permits, research papers and experiences to do all these, even if we can see some results, it is not even considered valid and there are a lot of things that are left unexplained...

yes, I believe they should if you are so concerned about the animal's well being. they do conduct experiments too.

bro, do you know exactly how much to add? do you often attempt to ramp up the dosing? isn't that experimenting with the dosing? for most products, not to say they are no good, they are just not doing much.

feeling pain is a survival instinct.

there's no such thing as confirmed compatibility. different fish has different personality. I do not believe white mouse are bred for experiment. no organism has evolved for this purpose. white mouse is bred for specific traits, same like your pedigree dogs, your special clown fishes, etc. it is just that they selected the traits meant to keep it easy for the researchers to work on. are you trying to tell me once I start breeding my fishes and corals, I can literally use them for all sorts of experiments? ethical issues in the use of animals in research work has been around for hundreds of years and there's still not much being done. I don't think this forum is for the discussion of such topics. Let's not digress too far.

I believe you just admitted to conducting experiments ( I admit I always buy weird fishes that are difficult to get feeding and some i managed to keep alive and some died but there are previous evidences and sources that show success...)

I partially agree that my experiments can be conducted with no livestock, which I always do. I just did not post the steps and the results as for that particular case, the results have little value. All of my experiments are always conducted with the simplest, possible environment before scaling up (usually just water in a container). This is part and parcel of science, starting your testing with simplest setup to remove all possible interferences and complications.

I will be more than happy to continue using no livestock when scaling up my experiments if I decide to keep a reef tank that is just a 1.5L of unopened distilled water without adding anything to it.

Please do search the Internet. Most solid waste are dumped in landfill or incinerated. Most non-hazardous liquid waste goes into the ocean.

I never say a nano is not, both are. I kept huge tanks before. It's just that I took a tiny piece, and you are literally screaming. People who take a huge piece, you are going to start a riot? haha.

I don't think you participated in reef forums often enough. There's literally tons of reefers doing experiments. There's actually not enough research and case studies, for your information. Marine biology and the reactions in the water is still not very well-understood by both scientists and aquarists alike. It is extremely complex.

You don't need a permit to conduct such research unless you are using CITES listed organisms. Which in that case, you need a CITES license to acquire the specimens.

Not valid? Who was the first to place a marine fish into a tank? Who was the first to place a coral into a tank? Who was the first to use pumps to simulate waves? Who was the first to use limewater and baking powder as an additive to the tank? Who was the first to attempted to skim the water? Who was the first to dose sugar, vodka, vinegar and all sorts of strange stuff into the water? The answer to them all is aquarists, people like us. Although I do admit some of the aquarists are scientists, but they keep aquariums for personal interest. The research field for aquatic science is rather small and the funding rather limited as compared to other fields. That's what I like about this field is simply the fact that there's a tremendous flow of information and ideas between the researchers and aquarists. There's no need for a scientific validation before aquarists and companies start jumping into the bandwagon. Let's take biopellets as an example. It is only recently that there's a group of researchers investigating the effectiveness of biopellets. That's way after biopellets are selling like hotcakes with many different brands.

[MadScientist]

The increase in cyanobacteria is becos the cyanobacteria are feeding off the carbon source from bp..The biopellet will not leech any thing back into the tank, it will just melt even if it escape into the main tank.. It is still the same even you try to dry the vinegar, have to do something about the hydrogen bond if not wrong, I dunno if even we can get the equipment without a lab environment... I dunno what are you trying to test here, carbon dosing does not have binding effects on the water parameter, the bacteria make use of the carbon source with the Nitrate and Phosphates, that is why the Nitrate and Phosphate will reduce.. If I am not mistaken from my knowledge, polymer laden water will be able to bind dirt and particles and thus will be skimmed out easily by skimmer..

The carbon source is actually the polymer. Leeching does not mean you must see something to tell it is leeching. It is analogous to that BPA is leeched from plastic bottles, you do not need to see pieces of plastic floating around in the bottle before saying it is leeching. If it melts and mixes with water, it is already leeching. Pardon if I was not clear previously. My definition of leeching is the transfer of materials from the original source to a different location other than the original source.

The reason why skimmers work better when dosing carbon is simply because they have more stuff to skim out, which is your increased bacteria population. By skimming out the bacteria, whatever the bacteria used (nitrate and phosphate) is exported out of the system. Even if the bacteria dies, it would not be degraded back to nitrate and phosphate.

I am trying to test if the polymer I used to hold the vinegar can be skimmed out by the skimmer, if not, I will get a tank full of the dissolved polymer. The polymer I am using should be harmless, it is from a marine organism source anyway. My intention is to have the system having the reactor connecting to skimmer. The increased bacteria population and the dissolved polymer would be skimmed out by the skimmer before it hits the tank. That should provide for a minimal contamination of carbon into the tank.

[MadScientist]

Tank got raided last night. All livestocks gone. Luckily, I was provided with monetary compensation,

It would seem that testing out the effects of the solid acetic acid on the pH/alkalinity would require constant monitoring. Hence, I will be able to only test it on weekends. For now, it is a good opportunity to test out the stability of the vinegar against oxidation during storage.

The test on freshwater showed no degradation of the polymer matrix during prolonged immersion in water. It would seem to me that I have to make a decision between a non-dissolvable solid or a gradual dissolvable solid. For the first choice, users would need to regularly remove the solids and replace with new ones. For the second choice, users would need to only add in new ones. However, for the second choice, the skimmer maintenance would have to be stepped up rather dramatically.

[MadScientist]

Skim mate. Looks not as bad as I expected

[Terryz_]

yes, I believe they should if you are so concerned about the animal's well being. they do conduct experiments too.

bro, do you know exactly how much to add? do you often attempt to ramp up the dosing? isn't that experimenting with the dosing? for most products, not to say they are no good, they are just not doing much.

feeling pain is a survival instinct.

there's no such thing as confirmed compatibility. different fish has different personality. I do not believe white mouse are bred for experiment. no organism has evolved for this purpose. white mouse is bred for specific traits, same like your pedigree dogs, your special clown fishes, etc. it is just that they selected the traits meant to keep it easy for the researchers to work on. are you trying to tell me once I start breeding my fishes and corals, I can literally use them for all sorts of experiments? ethical issues in the use of animals in research work has been around for hundreds of years and there's still not much being done. I don't think this forum is for the discussion of such topics. Let's not digress too far.

I believe you just admitted to conducting experiments ( I admit I always buy weird fishes that are difficult to get feeding and some i managed to keep alive and some died but there are previous evidences and sources that show success...)

I partially agree that my experiments can be conducted with no livestock, which I always do. I just did not post the steps and the results as for that particular case, the results have little value. All of my experiments are always conducted with the simplest, possible environment before scaling up (usually just water in a container). This is part and parcel of science, starting your testing with simplest setup to remove all possible interferences and complications.

I will be more than happy to continue using no livestock when scaling up my experiments if I decide to keep a reef tank that is just a 1.5L of unopened distilled water without adding anything to it.

Please do search the Internet. Most solid waste are dumped in landfill or incinerated. Most non-hazardous liquid waste goes into the ocean.

I never say a nano is not, both are. I kept huge tanks before. It's just that I took a tiny piece, and you are literally screaming. People who take a huge piece, you are going to start a riot? haha.

I don't think you participated in reef forums often enough. There's literally tons of reefers doing experiments. There's actually not enough research and case studies, for your information. Marine biology and the reactions in the water is still not very well-understood by both scientists and aquarists alike. It is extremely complex.

You don't need a permit to conduct such research unless you are using CITES listed organisms. Which in that case, you need a CITES license to acquire the specimens.

Not valid? Who was the first to place a marine fish into a tank? Who was the first to place a coral into a tank? Who was the first to use pumps to simulate waves? Who was the first to use limewater and baking powder as an additive to the tank? Who was the first to attempted to skim the water? Who was the first to dose sugar, vodka, vinegar and all sorts of strange stuff into the water? The answer to them all is aquarists, people like us. Although I do admit some of the aquarists are scientists, but they keep aquariums for personal interest. The research field for aquatic science is rather small and the funding rather limited as compared to other fields. That's what I like about this field is simply the fact that there's a tremendous flow of information and ideas between the researchers and aquarists. There's no need for a scientific validation before aquarists and companies start jumping into the bandwagon. Let's take biopellets as an example. It is only recently that there's a group of researchers investigating the effectiveness of biopellets. That's way after biopellets are selling like hotcakes with many different brands.

Yes, I know that the zoos and public aquarium do experiement but they have professional in the related field doing so...

The dosage is indicated on the bottle, Many ramp up the dosing is becos they dun understand the implication of overdosage, it is the same as having overdosage of medications..

I am saying the white mouses are bred for the purpose of doing experiment and not obtained from the wild and not talking about the trait of the mouse... It is all up to you if you want to experiment with your fishes that you spent so much time to raise... Many do that by separating the spawn to see which food is best for growth and coloration, done that with my betta spawn before.. There is still a lot of controversies with using of animal for experiment...

Yup, I admit that I do buy weird fishes and try to keep them alive, but I am not doing anything special to the water... They are difficult mainly due to the feeding problem... It is more of trying to get a diet that they eat in the wild.. And have done research on the fishes, that I want to buy if not much information is given, I will try to avoid that fish.. I believe it is the same as fw fishes, not all fishes adapt to dry food and etc... Just that Fw is easier to breed...

I know but if all the experiment that you want to do can be done before starting the main tank, it would not cause any death of anything.

I know most are still dumped in landfill and incinerated, not sure about liquid waste but I know some reefs are due to waste dumped into river and it goes all the way down to ocean, causing bleaching of the coastal barrier reefs..

Haha, no lar, you sounds like getting a nano is better than getting a huge tank.. lol..

Yes, but FYI most of the aquarist overseas are holding doctorate, phD or some related background when they are doing these experiments and they have support and backup from institution, and yes some are not professional... I agree a lot is still not known to a lot of marine biologist and scientist... But the point is if they cant even figure out what is going on, you think we can esp we are not equip-ed with all the knowledge and resources..

If there is not enough research and case studies, there will not be reefers keeping sps for years and not even using the latest technology and equipment..

I am just adding permits in the list as some research requires permit to carry out, not saying all.. Like what you said.. But hard corals and clams are under cites...

Most of the aquarists that started all these have marine biology or some scientific background and not just average aquarist... Actually they are more concern to aquaculture of food fish than ornamental, the funding are given to food fish aquaculture than ornamental aquaculture, same as singapore government...

I dun really think there are much flows with aquarist and researcher unless you are close with the researcher and have access to their research paper or you are willing to spend money to buy the papers..

Biopellets is proven to work from the results, that is when they started to sell like hotcakes... The reseachers are not there to prove if it works, they are to test for the effectiveness..

[Terryz_]

The carbon source is actually the polymer. Leeching does not mean you must see something to tell it is leeching. It is analogous to that BPA is leeched from plastic bottles, you do not need to see pieces of plastic floating around in the bottle before saying it is leeching. If it melts and mixes with water, it is already leeching. Pardon if I was not clear previously. My definition of leeching is the transfer of materials from the original source to a different location other than the original source. The reason why skimmers work better when dosing carbon is simply because they have more stuff to skim out, which is your increased bacteria population. By skimming out the bacteria, whatever the bacteria used (nitrate and phosphate) is exported out of the system. Even if the bacteria dies, it would not be degraded back to nitrate and phosphate. I am trying to test if the polymer I used to hold the vinegar can be skimmed out by the skimmer, if not, I will get a tank full of the dissolved polymer. The polymer I am using should be harmless, it is from a marine organism source anyway. My intention is to have the system having the reactor connecting to skimmer. The increased bacteria population and the dissolved polymer would be skimmed out by the skimmer before it hits the tank. That should provide for a minimal contamination of carbon into the tank.

I dun think there is leeching involved in the usage of biopellets, The bacteria colonises the bp and feeds on the bp and the tumbling will cause some of the bacteria to be discharged from the reactor and into the tank...

I believe it should work but hopefully this time without any livestocks.. lol..

Actually the bp reactor outlet is to placed at the inlet of the skimmer to get maximum results...

[Terryz_]

Tank got raided last night. All livestocks gone. Luckily, I was provided with monetary compensation, It would seem that testing out the effects of the solid acetic acid on the pH/alkalinity would require constant monitoring. Hence, I will be able to only test it on weekends. For now, it is a good opportunity to test out the stability of the vinegar against oxidation during storage. The test on freshwater showed no degradation of the polymer matrix during prolonged immersion in water. It would seem to me that I have to make a decision between a non-dissolvable solid or a gradual dissolvable solid. For the first choice, users would need to regularly remove the solids and replace with new ones. For the second choice, users would need to only add in new ones. However, for the second choice, the skimmer maintenance would have to be stepped up rather dramatically.

I am still wondering how you going to get the solid acetic acids and testing the stability of the vinegar against oxidation during storage... Ascorbic acid will turn brown from my experience...

I believe the two things you are talking about is using zeolite and using biopellets??? From your description, it fits nicely..

[MadScientist]

I am still wondering how you going to get the solid acetic acids and testing the stability of the vinegar against oxidation during storage... Ascorbic acid will turn brown from my experience...

I believe the two things you are talking about is using zeolite and using biopellets??? From your description, it fits nicely..

Acetic acid is vinegar, ascorbic acid is vitamin c. Acetic acid is more stable than vitamin c. Zeolite provides no carbon source. It is a natural ion exchanger. It binds ammonia (assuming you are talking about those for aquarium filtration usage as there's hundreds of types of zeolites that can bind many different stufs) to its surface. Since it is porous, it supports bacteria population easily.

The bacteria colonises the surface, using the ammonia which is bound on the surface. The bacteria produces nitrite which is used by another group of bacteria, which converts it to nitrate. Deeper in the zeolite, a less aerobic environment exists. Another group of bacteria living there converts nitrate to nitrogen.

That is totally different from what I am trying to do

[MadScientist]

Temperature controller with exhaust fan