Intro and 20KK poll

[DragonGoby]

Hi to all of you here,

I've finally registered, although I've been lurking around and stealing peeks at posts these past few weeks. Think a few of you here may know me already, but here's a little intro - been keeping (or *trying* to keep) reefs for about 3 years, and started off with a 2-footer which got upgraded to a 4-footer last year.

It's upgrade time, so I just bought a new 4 x 2 x 2.5 (height) tank and spent the last 2 weeks getting everything ready - extra foundation, checking and re-checking plumbing etc., and it's now finally ready! Attached a pic below for you guys to view (p.s. Phang, there you are! A pic at last!!) The pic is a little blue cos only one of the MH is on, but right now it consists of nothing but rockwork, some hermits and a few corals as lighting test. All the filter components and most of the sand was re-used from my old aquaria, so the break-in period was really short, like 1.5 weeks only.

Some specs of the new tank:

Total vol ~160gal

Return circulation - 2 x 3400L/min pumps

Lighting - 2 x 70W MH, 2 x 48" Actinics NO, 2 x 48" 10KK NO (ok, really need to upgrade lighting!!)

In-tank circulation - 2 x large powerheads, 1 x rotating powerhead

Protein skimmer - Sander Injector model

Main filtration - LR, DSB (5" front, 6" at the back), small drip-plate wet-dry column in sump. Going to convert one of the filter compartments in sump into macroalgae refugium after I've settled the lighting issue.

Water - DI water with TM salt

Anyway, to my main point - anyone here using 20KK or radium MH bulbs? I'm considering using 2 x 250W 20KK without actinics or 2 x 10KK with actinics. Quite apart from aesthetic considerations, I was wondering if the PAR of 20KK bulbs is significantly less than that of the 10KKs? Checked some websites but there wasn't much info about this, considering the Radiums are relatively new on the market.

Also, I was having a little discussion with Phang about my MH lights. One of them starts up and burns to maximum intensity, then suddenly goes off with a buzzing sound coming from the ballast box (with capacitor etc inside too) Phang suspects it's a ballast problem - any ideas? Alamak, must really go and upgrade the lighting now.

OK, that's all for now. It's been a real pleasure reading all your posts (albeit in secret - "steal teacher", tou1 shi1 ! haha) and you guys really know what you are doing! Hope to know more of the crowd over here at SG Reef, and hopefully one day my tank can get as spectacular as AT's (dang! My eyes really popped at your new one, congrats!) or Tanzy's and Phang's and many others as well.

Regards,

Hong Yee

"DragonGoby"

[Achilles Tang]

Hi DG (long name you got there!)

WELCOME TO SRC!!!

Good to have you come out of the closet and admit you are a reefer! LOL!

I like your rockscaping!

To answer you:

anyone here using 20KK or radium MH bulbs? - Yes there are.... but radiums are too blue to be used on their own. So you need to mix bulbs.

I'm considering using 2 x 250W 20KK without actinics or 2 x 10KK with actinics.

- I like the look of 10k with actinics. White with a tinge of blue. 20ks are very dim.

Quite apart from aesthetic considerations, I was wondering if the PAR of 20KK bulbs is significantly less than that of the 10KKs?

- yes, 20ks have lower par than 10k. So if you like the look of 20ks... go higher wattage.

Checked some websites but there wasn't much info about this, considering the Radiums are relatively new on the market.

- Actually, there are a lot of feedback on Radiums especially in RC. To get the 10k look w actinics... they recommend 400 watts overdriven by Blueline e-ballast... very ex and can't get in SG.

I think it's definitely a ballast problem with yr current MHs... but 70 watts only?? You used to keep a FW planted tank?

What ever you do.. for your new reef tank... take it slow!

For a tank that size... you may seriously want to look at a REAL skimmer soon.

AT

[Phang]

Ahhh.... Hong Yee,

You finally in here....

Great!!!! Now can hear much more from you without going to and fro .....

Hey, nice reef you have there....

Regarding the radiums, think if you do a search, might be able to come up with a few topics on their information...

I have seen Radiums 400Ws driven by Blueline Ballast.... nice whitish appearance.... Radiums 250Ws driven by magnetic ballast however are blue.... needs whiter light source.... to supplement.....

Many reefers recommend a Iwaski and Radium combo for good light blend...

Jus for information, ther PAR for RAdiums 400W are similar to that of a saki 250W....

AND, are you into SPS?????????

[Achilles Tang]

Personally, I think the 400 watt radiums even when driven with blueline ballasts are a little too blue for me.... it's extremely bright for sure...

I much prefer the colours of 10k bulbs.... More white!

I just need some one to show me a 400w radium with 10k bulb combo.

[Tanzy]

400W Radium has higher PAR than 400W Ushio 10000K. (Have figures)

250W Radium has lower PAR than 250W Ushio 10000K. (No figures, read it on RC before, but won't be surprised because it's a less efficient bulb compared to 400W brother)

Blueness is subjective. Best is to see it for yourself. I like the Radium and supplement it with Actinic and 10000K FL.

[DragonGoby]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the very warm welcome, I already feel like a part of the forum already!

What's the wattage of the lamps you guys are using? Of course, 400W would be my ideal goal, but considering the amount of heat given off and long-run electricity costs, I've decided to go for 250W.

Phang, when you mentioned 10KK and Radium combo, surely you mean placing both bulbs in the same horizontal breadth plane, and not one 10KK on one end of the hood and the Radium on the other? 'Cos if that's the case I will need to get 4 MH bulb fixtures - costly and space-taking isn't it?

But yes, I really want to eventually cross the line and go over to SPS, but I'll have to get an efficient chiller first. Will 1/4 HP work for this tank, or would 1/2 HP or higher be better? But I book you first ah?!? When I do start with SPS I'll really need your help with loads of tips and all! Haha ...

AT: haha, yes, long nick - yours too! My days of keeping an utterly non-professional yeast-and-sugar based planted tank were long gone - only set one up to please my mom. She's got the weirdest tastes, believe me. In fact she was the one who insisted upon having a cave in the rockwork, which thankfully worked out to look ok. Ooops .. digressed, sorry. Anyway, no, the entire lighting fixture came to me second-hand together with some other parts of the tank, so I didn't have much of a choice. Figured I could use it to grow other plants indoors or something. Well, if it's a ballast problem then I suppose it can't be helped - the tank will have to run on 1 MH until I finally get the lighting and hood done.

About the skimmer - so far it's doing nicely for me, I've got another skimmer in fact, an Amiracle double venturi - but that unit doesn't really suit my tastes. The gunk it pulls out is excellent - dark and slimy and all you ever could wish for in gunk - but it seems to need more frequent adjustment than the Sander. This other one isn't as impressive bubble-wise (The Amiracle looks like I placed milk into the chamber!!), but it's not an airstone model so I won't have to bother about replacing the stones.

One last enquiry - does the output of actinics significant to the overall wattage in the tank? As in, the PAR - does it add any at all?

Thanks again for taking time to help me out with the lighting, seems that I'll have to spend tonight reading up more (and get headaches) and maybe try to go round looking at samples of effects of different lamp combos.

Regards,

Hong Yee

[Phang]

What's the wattage of the lamps you guys are using? Of course, 400W would be my ideal goal, but considering the amount of heat given off and long-run electricity costs, I've decided to go for 250W.

Phang, when you mentioned 10KK and Radium combo, surely you mean placing both bulbs in the same horizontal breadth plane, and not one 10KK on one end of the hood and the Radium on the other? 'Cos if that's the case I will need to get 4 MH bulb fixtures - costly and space-taking isn't it?

But yes, I really want to eventually cross the line and go over to SPS, but I'll have to get an efficient chiller first. Will 1/4 HP work for this tank, or would 1/2 HP or higher be better? But I book you first ah?!? When I do start with SPS I'll really need your help with loads of tips and all! Haha ...

Well, You have to decide on PAR and looks....

I think a Saki 6500k and a Radium is what I have mentioned....

Placing both bulbs on the horizontal plane???/...

Think wou have a better spread if you place them perpendicular to tank length... of course you can alway DIY your parabolic reflectors....

I run 2 x 400Ws and 1 Saki 250W.... IMO, the Saki is a very overpowering bulb...... diminish all the blues generated by my Bluelines.....

But in order to have the high PAR generated, on my Saki when I'm not around.......

When I'm back from work, My saki switches off........

[Tanzy]

Dragongoby,

Actinics add PAR since the 420nm light is usable for photosynthesis but it is not included in overall tank PAR because they are much less than the PAR produced by MH unless actinics are significant part of the lighting.

For Radium combi, you will need a minimum of 3 MH fixtures.

I'll recommend at least 1/3 HP chiller for two 250W MH and minimum 1/2 HP for two 400W. Higher the HP, the more electricity you will save, you just pay the initial cost.

AT,

I think 400W Radiums are just the right white for me. Maybe the actinics made it too blue for your taste. Radiums really bring out the coral pigments very well compared to Ushio.

Picture does not reflect true colours but you get to compare the Ushio relative to Radium. Both on Blueline ballast.

[DragonGoby]

Phang, you've got 3 MHs?!? Wowee! That's really something! What's the chiller you're using at present? Would love it if you could post a couple of pics of your tank ... also, how do you place your 3 bulbs? I suppose it's (Blueline-Saki-Blueline) lengthwise? No income yet lah ... so can't get 3 bulbs unless I blackmail my parents or something. I'm settling for 2 MHs for now, perhaps 2 x 250W Iwasaki 10KK supplemented with actinics. Have space for 4 x 48" NO actinic bulbs across the tank, or I can be extravagant and use PCs instead. However, I prefer the look of NO actinics - the PC actinics somehow aren't such an intense violet-blue.

Tanzy, heard that someone managed to get a 1/2HP chiller from HK at $600 or thereabouts. Sounds good - will definitely get that if there's lobang. Or maybe buy a second-hand one. Any idea what's the HP for Teco680? Seems like it's one of the more abundant chillers people use locally.

So .. from what I've netted from this discussion, if I were to get Radiums alone (let's just assume I like the colour ) I'd need 400W bulbs to get good PAR, and no actinics are needed? Or do I still need to add another 10KK bulb on top of the 400W Radiums to compensate for PAR?

[Tanzy]

Dragongoby,

There's a mix up. I've got no contact from HK. Definitely someone else since I got my chiller locally second hand. I'm using a Teco RA680, should be a 1/2 HP.

Ya, go for 400W if you like Radiums. I think Robe told me that the 400W Radiums produces 8000 lumens compared to the 250W which gives 3000 lumens. Thats more than double the increase in lumens for less than double the increase in wattage.

No need to compensate for PAR, 400W Radiums on the appropriate ballasts have higher PAR than 10000K bulbs (AB or Ushio). If you want higher PAR, go for another Radium or get an Iwasaki 6500K. The 10000K bulb is to balance out the blue colour and give an increase in violet light of 420nm for inducing more SPS pigmentation.

In fact actinics are good supplementation for Radiums because they peak at 450nm so could use a boost in the 420nm range.

[DragonGoby]

Tanzy, so I could actually go for 2 x 400W Radiums + some actinics and not end up looking too blue? Cos if I use 1 x 400W Radium and 1 x 10KK then half the tank's going to end up looking blue and the other looking white. Very weird. Hope you don't mind me asking, but how much more am I going to expect to fork out for Blueline ballasts as compared to the usual MH ballast, so as to power the Radiums?

[Tanzy]

I can't tell you whether it will be too blue or not. It really is up to you. I use 110W of Actinic to go with two Radiums and I find it just right.

Expect about S$400 per 400W Blueline e-ballast inclusive of shipping. Bulbs are about S$150 each including shipping if bought from US. Fixtures can be sourced locally.