How BIG a skimmer do I really need?

[riot]

Having read Rumour's posting of Anthony Calfo's thread, I am SERIOUSLY re-evaluating my potential purchase of a larger HS. I am currently running a HS external needlewheel for a 400L Max tank. That makes it slightly undersized for my 4X2X2 full SPS reef. Running a zeovit system which requires aggressive skimming (whatever that means), the skimmer is way tiny compated to the main display. Its little 18w needlewheel spins through untreated water 600l per min, turning over my main tank 1.5 times an hour. Nitrates and phospates is zero, and I dump a coffee mug of skimmate (dark and viscous) per week. However, I have tufts of hair algae growing in spots and they are manually harvested every week- a palm full. Thats quite a lot. Minimal feeding (two cubes of mysis per week only) with zeovit dosing.

I like what Calfo said, and have done a bit of soul searching. Upsizing to a new 850L or the 1300L (eheim 1260 driven) HS is not a cheap option. I would like to seek experienced reefer's advice as to the extra cash I am shelling out would be a wise and practical decision - would there be INCREASED performance? Performance, defined as eliminating Hair Algae growth or reducing it to a point manual harvesting is an option exercised most infrequently. Secondly, how does one REALLY REALLY REALLY know when the skimmer is properly sized? This might be relevant to starting reef keepers me who are struggling with that constant upgrading bug.

[weileong]

Quoted from Deltec Website which I find it to be true in my limited experience. This would apply to any other brands of skimmers as well.

There are 2 philosophies regarding the operation of a successful marine aquarium.

One is to is to have an average performing skimmer to take out some of the protein but also have a large amount of biological filtration to deal with the resulting breakdown from the remainder. This type of system will normally lead to a trend for rising nitrate levels.

The second way and the preferred Deltec method is to install a highly efficient skimmer that removes the majority of waste before it breaks down thus requiring less biological filtration and resulting in a lower level of nitrate that is much easier to cope with by the reducing bacteria in the system.

You said your NO3 and PO4 is zero but it is just undetectable by your method of testing only.

I would think that even with a larger skimmer your hair algae will still be there as they are still ###### out the nutrients in your system as the nutrients slowly leach out from your substrates and LRs. Once there is no more nutrients to leach the hair algaes will be gone.

Since NO3 and PO4 are undetectable so probably your current skimmer is of sufficient capacity.

[Achilles Tang]

Anthony Calfo meant well when he mentioned those who are always trying to one-up someone else's monster skimmer for the sake of boasting....

In most cases, the bigger the skimmer, the better & more stable your system.

A skimmer is a nutrient exporter. A so-called 'water purification' device. The benefits of skimming are obvious.

If you're running a full SPS tank, you want to achieve very low nutrient conditions. The smaller your skimmer, the slower accumulating nutrients will leave your system. So either you feed nuisance algae or you let your SPS corals brown up faster due to zooxanthellea overgrowth.

How a skimmer is made determines the speed and quality of these effects. You acknowledged that your skimmer is tiny and undersized... are you looking for affirmation that it'll suffice?

Sorry dude... there are others things that one can compromise on but certainly not something as critical as a skimmer.

Trust me... when something goes bad with the water... your lights or your chiller is not going to save your tank... the skimmer WILL!!

My 2 cents.

AT

[tineng]

IMO there will alway be algae....in the wild, the nutrient level are very very low.....but there will still be algae growing....if not, how can fishes like tangs grow so fat!!!!

anyway, i believe in keeping things in moderation, if your skimmer is keeping nutrient low, i see not point in up-ing its capability.....

[AlfaRomeo]

Riot, you are on the right track. Undetectable No3 and Po4 means that the skimmer is right for the job. Those algae will go away as soon as the leaching of nutrients no longer occurs. Keep with the zeovit dosing and soon you will see the algae dieing a slow death.

1.5x turnover rate is safe and within spec for a reef. Any idea of the dwell time for the skimmer?

From what I see, The Skimmer can handle the current loading but if sumthing drastic happens then it will most prob exhaust its capability and will not be able to cope with fast nutrient extraction.

[Achilles Tang]

From what I see, The Skimmer can handle the current loading but if sumthing drastic happens then it will most prob exhaust its capability and will not be able to cope with fast nutrient extraction.

Precisely my point.

[DeepBlue]

Dun be over paranoid because of an article.....

What you may want to consider would be the stocking of your tank and the amount of nutrients you are introducing to your tank. With that , if need be select a skimmer within your means to help manage the water quality of your tank.

If running a big tank is going to make me go beyond my budget and other aspects gonna be sacrificed...I rather have a smaller tank with lesser fish stock.

For me....key to reefing is moderation lah ....

feed too much ... you got problem

Use too much Zeolite ... you got problem

stock too much ... you got problem

run too much phos removal medium ... you got problem

(got to sneak back to work now)

[AlfaRomeo]

Only non-problem when you have too much of - $

[weileong]

And finally spend too much beyond your means and you will have very BIG problem

[Achilles Tang]

I would like to seek experienced reefer's advice as to the extra cash I am shelling out would be a wise and practical decision - would there be INCREASED performance?

Unless you buy a crappy AND expensive skimmer.

Performance, defined as eliminating Hair Algae growth or reducing it to a point manual harvesting is an option exercised most infrequently.

At a state of equilibrium... where the amount of nutrients being added in is equal to the rate of nutrients being exported... using the skimmer alone (discounting water changes) and you still see nuisance algae proliferating... what does that tell you?

But of course, you have the option to use other means of water quality control to supplement your skimmer... frequent water changes, use of phosphate absorbers, use of carbon etc.

Secondly, how does one REALLY REALLY REALLY know when the skimmer is properly sized? This might be relevant to starting reef keepers me who are struggling with that constant upgrading bug.

My personal rule of thumb is probably to get one size up than is usually rated by the manufacturer or get the biggest one you can afford. Some are notoriously overstating their capabilities.

By doing so... you more or less avoid the upgrading bug...

[AlfaRomeo]

Yup, dunt make the same mistake as me. This is my 3rd skimmer in a yr! Went from AquaC EV240-Beckett 648-Deltec AP902. Lost quite a bit of $ when selling old and buying new. Lesson learnt, overspec and you will safe $ in the long run. Hth Riot!

[riot]

Thanks guys for the advice. Actually, I would really like a BIGGER HS skimmer. But boy, these buggers arent cheap- esp the eheim 1260 (rated X 3+ my tank size). The small HS is doing fine, chugging along giving me a constant foam. Holding all things constant, it aint half bad. If Im not running a sps reef, the min HS is perfect for my skimming needs.

But the larger HS does provide more room for error. Sigh....looks like I gotta go feed the jaguar soon.

[Achilles Tang]

Feed the jaguar!! Haven't heard that term in a long time!

[weileong]

Have you look at the deltec instead? The ehiem 1260 model is much cheaper

[riot]

whoa no joke? Like how much?

I prefer the construction of the HS, but if its like REALLY REALLY REALLY cheaper, then Im going to join the Deltec clan.

Contact edmund right?

[weileong]

yeap contact Edmund. Oh the 1260 H&S going for above $2k in the black meow meow shop right?

[AlfaRomeo]

Riot, care to elaborate on the construction of the HnS that you prefer over the Deltecs pls? Hope you dunt mind. I have never seen a HnS before but i do own a Deltec. Thanks!

[Marineman]

Skimmer, the bigger the better, at least double if not triple or quadruple you tank's capacity.

[weileong]

There are different schools of thought.

Some seems to think that having over-specs skimmer will cause lost of trace elements. So in the end need to dose back coral food, dose back trace elements.

Some seems to think that over skimming is good. Extra skimmer capacity in case of any spike in bioload.

Endless debates over this

In fact hot debate (or seems so) just over in another forum

[riot]

WL- yeah you are right on! The internal model is $1800++ I think, so the external one is about there.

Alfa- the deltec looks slicker, I agree, with the black curved thingy and the drain in the collection cup. But the HS looks like its built like a TANk! (no lah the metal ones that run on tracks, not the glass ones Check out the pix- the bracing on the body suporting the 1260. But more importanly, I have been running the HS 400L and I love its performance and ease of setup. Also, i like the fact that S3@ life is the distributor- easy to get parts. Not too sure about EAN's ex stock

[riot]

Makes it easier deltec Ap850 to compare.

I should think performance similar (just guessing only no flaming please)

[weileong]

bro... your AP850 photo is old model.

you're most welcome to my crappy place for a look at the skimmer.

The new model looks like this.

This one is running freshwater test for leakage so that's why giant bubbles

[AlfaRomeo]

Riot, thats a cool looking skimmer. How do you control the water level in the skimmer? I dunt see a gate/ball valve at the output or input. How about air control? Thanks!

[roidan]

air control via a clip at the air hose...

water flow control via the vertical pipe at the T joint

[weileong]

Alfa, the water level is tune by rotating the elbow besides the neck.

Air is tune with the air hose clamp