To Keep, Or not to Keep?

[nicholasloh]

I was thinking about the fishes last night, and i realised something.

When we say that the fishes are happy in the tank, are the fishes actually happy?

When ppl say that their tank looks like a reef, i think: yah, true, but it can never be a real reef."

Then in that case wouldn't it be better to leave them in the ocean, and survive with they shoal and schools? Isn't it better that they have ###### there?

Why are we humans capitalising on their misery?

I do have a reef tank, but I came to realise that our fishes are actually wishing that they are in the sea, just like gill in finding nemo.

I didn't release them, but i know that i'm in the wrong. Damn it!

But this post is to question people who say that they have a good reef tank and those that think that their fishes are enjoying their stay. (This is NOT out of jealousy whatsoever)

Have they thought about this question? No matter how good your setup is, it cant be as good as the real thing.

EG: This tank look like a reef, ... with glass walls.

This is foam,....that is stimulated by the pump.

So maybe we should consider this before reefing or else risk being called a hyprocrite, for having a 'illusionary coral reef' at home!!!

Post your comments here.

Put 'Support' in caps before the reply if u agree.

Put 'Oppose' in caps before the reply if u dun agree.

Put 'I'm humpty dumpty' if you are sitting on the fence.

[nicholasloh]

Note: This is a formal topic, preferbly no jokes, puns or funny stuff.

[Siput]

NONE OF THE THREE

Think about it; isn't all life and freedom illusory? During the days of our ancestors, our "tank" was the village, then as people learned to travel, perhaps our "tank" extended to some other country. Today, our "tank" is as far as we can go by plane, train or ship. In future, who knows? if you are of the more spiritual sort, then is God keeping a fish tank?

So what is your personal "tank"?

Same for all animals; in the ocean, a reef fish's "tank" is its territory; by nature they do not go beyond that. They also face danger of predators, disease, pollution (with man), etc.

In the home tank (note no ""s), they are relatively safe, but face the real dangers of inexperienced keepers, and their lives are literally in someone else's hands. But for some fish, is this environment any different from the ocean "tank"?

Same argument goes for dogs, cats, etc. In some cases where the animal is so domesticated, it may even be cruel conversely to release them into the wild. Just like canaries and budgies released by the pious on holy days; they will almost certainly suffer and die "on the outside".

Guess it is all relative, but more importantly, if you do keep pets, please take real good care of them!

Also where possible try to get domesticated pets and not those caught from the wild....as someone else put it; when they buying stops, the killing stops...

[nicholasloh]

will said siput, but what if the fish would like to explore a new ground, or enlarge its territory?

Then all we can do is to shrug and think that the fish is stressed.

[ReDDeviLs]

when u do upgrading to your tank,that will mean bring them to some new bigger houses...

same theory to birds in the cage and the pet dog we have at home.

[nicholasloh]

but, do the tank automatically upgrade when the fish swims to the end of the tank?

[timzhiquan]

really depends on the fish you keep. some fish probably don't move more than a few feet from their homes throughout the course of their entire lives. Others, like tangs (srry. dun mean to sound like tang police here) need plenty space to swim freely in the wild, which unfortunately we cannot replicate in our own homes.

since we are all already into this hobby, what we can do now is to try our level best to create a 'home away from home' for these fish, simulating their natural habitat, foods, etc in our own tanks. at the same time making our tanks more of a pleasure to view.

happy reefing.

[Guinness]

One day when the aliens come and capture a few of you and bring you back to their planet X; then stick u in a small football field size replica of earth (who knows which part of earth they choose to replicate, skully the aliens try the 'ghetto' look!).... Hope you all enjoy your 'home away from home' ......

MUAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA MUAHAHAHAHAH

[ryz]

have you considered the fact that homo sapiens sapiens is an introduced species?? haha..

[Zero Oxygen]

It is never possible to replicate the real environment those fishes were in. Thats why we spent so much money on skimming, allocating space for bigger tanks, lightings etc etc etc.

You know that it is never possible to beat mother nature. But what we can do is to create a environment as close as possible......

''nicholasloh Posted on Apr 6 2004, 06:28 PM

''but, do the tank automatically upgrade when the fish swims to

''the end of the tank?

For a fish..... when it come to the end of the tank, the tank dont

dont automatically upgrade...but the mentality of the fish is it will never get bored like humans do. They can just keep going and going and going.....

Upgrading a tank size will just only make them less stress...... with more spaces for each its own..... less territoral abusement. More buffer zone when things go wrong..... it dont amuse them at all......it doesnt make them happy like when we move into a bigger house, a nicer decoration.... they just dont have that kind of feelings like humans do. what we are doing is to replicate their natural environment so that it suit their biological structure.. and thus reduce further stress on them

Thats why for a tank of ur size, to increase the survival rate, we advice u not to keep so many LS. it dont mean that they are unhappy or happy..... but the sudden fluatation of water parameter etc makes them more prone to illness and etc......

i believe you post this is to question people on what people criticise....

but facts is just there....... i may sound hash but i keep finding that you are rather oblivious of others comments etc.........

[blacknails]

Yup, for many fishes that we keep in our tanks (damsels, clowns etc), they spend their ENTIRE LIFETIMES staying only in the confines of their territory in the wild.

Therefore I believe that if you give them the best water conditions and don't overstock your tank, they'll feel like they're in the wild as well, without the presence of enemies somemore!!

With the said, another thing to consider would be the fact that we'll probably never know what being happy to a fish truly is. I mean, we try to put ourselves in the fish's shoes but come on, their brain capacities are alot alot smaller than us, with even less space for storing memories of the ocean. So probably for a fish happiness would probably just mean having food and a place to hide. Heh.. They sure don't do philosophy.

[ReDDeviLs]

they arent like birds who can fly far and high,but maybe they can swim deep? who knows.. we dont speak like how they do?

[blacknails]

they arent like birds who can fly far and high,but maybe they can swim deep? who knows.. we dont speak like how they do?

Ermm, well, personally, I am against keeping birds in cages because they really should be left flying from place to place like they were created.

This is with the exception of parrots who also spend their entire lifetimes in their own territory and very very seldom leave its confines. So I believe that giving a parrot adequate living space will ensure its happiness even if it is not in the wild.

With regards to fishes again, yes, many many fishes and underwater inverts (giant squid, anyone?) spend most of their lifetimes swimming from place to place and from depth to depth BUT what we must be aware of is that the fishes WE keep in our reef tanks mostly spend their entire lifetimes being comfortable in the confines of their territories and do not swim from reef to reef. (Nobody here keeps a giant squid or a barracuda I hope)

Therefore only ignorant hobbyists (this is not an attack on anyone.. just a general comment) who choose to believe that fishes have the brain capacities to think the way humans do (like in Finding Nemo), feel that fishes would be less happy in a well maintained, sizeable tank.

Hope hobbyists who've read my post can now finally sleep properly at night...

Except you evil evil bird keepers

[FuEl]

The aquarium trade is here to stay for good....as it's a $$ churning market in singapore...

[southpaw23]

I think you're forgetting one small point there nicholas. First off, not all fishes roam the entire seas.....and most only inhabit a small part of the ocean....staying within the confines of their habitat (ie. Go watch finding nemo again and realise that clown fishes will stay within the confines of their host anemone) while other fishes which are active swimmers tend to require more room to move. *Edit* which has already been mentioned by blacknails

Now when you're starting a reeftank...the reason why ppl are particular about the size of tanks is simply to fulfull these requirements for the fish to be able to live to its ripe old age. Provided with the right enviroment, studies have shown that a percula clown fish could live in an aquarium for 30 years....and to the fish, i'll bet you my bottom dollar, he would be as happy as being in the ocean itself, if not better.

Sure we can't simulate reality EXACTLY but we can be responsible enough to try our best to make it as similar as possible. The problem is this....the fish and coral trade is not going to diminish in the next couple of years....like it or not...ppl are going to try and make a quick buck by plucking corals and fishes out of their natural habitat to support a trade. But understanding this, it is OUR responsibility as reefkeepers to ensure that these animals get a proper home. That is why we have Forums like these so that ppl with less knowledge can come and learn and in the hopes of someday saving these fishes and corals from unecessary deaths in the hands of these less knowledgable people.

Even in saying that, there have been efforts to curb reefs from being violated....in the US, there are a few companies which promote captive bred fishes and corals in a bid to stop ppl from harvesting from mother nature itself. They have spent millions in studying the appropriate conditions it would take to ensure that the fishes are breeding and the babies are healthy....only selling them when they are at an acceptable size.

[hmkui]

hi.. just my thoughts... all this statement depends on which angle or perspective we are standing at. We cannot conclude whether the fish is happy or sad but the least we could do is to equip ourselves with the knowledge and equipment to provide the best enviroment for our LS. Most of the death is cause by irresponsible hobbyist who do not wish to take the time and effort to understand the needs for all this LS. In the wild all this LS have to face life and death every single day, they have to fend for themselves if not they will end up in someone else stomach. Imagined you are the one who is every now and then fending yrself against predator do you think you will be happy living in this kind of enviroment. I think you have watch certain thriller movies esp those whom trying to escape from serial killers. Can you imagine the amount of fear and stress the victim have to go through. So all this is just plain thoughts which we can't really answer but be damn well that if you going to keep any pets so be it fishes, dogs, birds...etc we better be responsible and have the time and commitment for all this pets. If we don't have the willingness to commit ourselves please stay away from all this animal cause we will be murderer to all this pets. cheers

[Guinness]

Anyone remember the Ikea TV commercial with the gold fish in a bowl?????

Reckon our fishies are similar......

AHHAHA..... think of the TVC also wanna laff.