Cheap??? Method of Reefing ...

lizard44 · February 10, 2005

hi guys (and sis, if any)

happy new year ...

hope all reefers here enjoy the year ahead with promotion, money, health and good relations :lol:

let me start another flamey topic for the good year ahead:

Cheap??? Method of Reefing

my current setup is still fish only with LR, except for one silly clam that costed me an arm and a leg.

my current salinity reading is 1.021 (intentionally kept it low as i have no chiller).

temperature reading is 28 deg C (no chiller ).

light is 6xT5 and protein skimmer is cutey AS350 Macro needle wheel.

my ph reading used to be 8.0 and having been dosing ph buffers (all kinds) for about a week to bring it up to ph 8.20. this is indeed an expensive hobby (i have already dosed about $20 worth of ph buffers). so inorder to keep it cheap, i have decided to buy ntuc epsom salt as a replacement. i will report to you guys about its results. (how accurate is my ph reading? i am using pin-point ph probe, so should be reasonably accurate, after using 2 different buffer liquids for calibration, 4.0 and 7.0; the company claimed an accuracy of up to 0.01, don't know real or bluff)

my current Nitrate (no3) reading is nitrate 30 (came down from 40 about 2 weeks ago). it has not changed significantly for the past week, so i believe no3 will stay more or less the same and unlikely to drop to <5 for me to keep corals. so i intend to dose 1/2 tea-spoon of table sugar daily and see if i could reduce the nitrate reading. will try to report within the next one week or so.

no calcium dosing yet, until i settle my nitrate reading (step-by-step mah).

since from my previous posts, you guys don't like to talk about about dead fishes, so i should refrain from talking about them, although i personally felt that to prevent more deaths, we must talk about them.

anyway, no deaths to talk about from my tank so far (touch wood).

over the next month, i really hope to add one AT or chevron tang and one black tang into my system.

hope you guys give me a chance to get them.

once again, happy new year ahead ... and enjoy this great hobby ...

:thanks:

cheapo lizard

DeepBlue · February 10, 2005

'cheap' is relative....

I started reefing with a 2ft tank.....with softies...no chillers as well.

ran 6 fans from oceanfree brand....and FL lights

of course with buttons, mushies and leather corals...super satisfied then

I kept just a flame angel(my most exp. fish) and a couple of damsels :lol:

Fish lost...who doesnt? Be practical...I have seen too many reefers who goes ard putting pple down for this and that. Biggest jokes are those with little credibility and experience going ard pointing at the flaws and not offering any help or constructive suggestions.

Bottomline...try your best to pick up the good husbndry skills shared by reefers and try to pay attention to your tank ..that's the most impt thing...(I look at my tank countless times a day and check on all my corals and fishes)

oh yah...AT needs a big tank with strong current....hope you consider that when stocking.

Anyway, happy reefing.

Lin · February 10, 2005

hi lizard44

dun feel discriminate leh.. we all come in to share.. and diff ppl come frm different place to arrive at the same destination.. if u are willing to share..we are willing to help/share also.. in reefing, theres no right or wrong ans.. juz a matter of success i always believe.. do take extra time to read up more info.. happy Reefing~ CheeRs..

optimus prime · February 10, 2005

i think if no money,die die want a marine tank,be content with FOWLR.

no point adding stress to yourself to keep up with those with power tank.

additives/electric bill can kill liow. i started with reef tank for a year.till i realise i cant afford.now keeping FOWLR for about 5 years liow.cheers!!!

p.s now qianhu bring in fake corals from OCEAN FREE.check it out

chewlaoheng · February 10, 2005

for a narrow 3ft tank I think can still make do with the additive and electrical bill

Lucifer · February 10, 2005

will table sugar really help 2 reduce nitrate???i only heard of vodka method.... :unsure:

typrobin · February 10, 2005

check out my old tank thread....

no chiller and fully stock..but only LPS loh...didn't dare to try SPS....

junyong84 · February 11, 2005

keep a fish only tank if u want it cheap! the beauty of marine fishes can beat Freshwater fishes anytime!

Ekia · February 12, 2005

Cheap is actually relative, different people define cheap differently. You can actually have a decent setup without spending much money. Most important is to understand why people do certain things and to understand the rationale behind it. Some people spend more money on equipments so that they can spend less time maintaining the tank and more time enjoying it. If you decides to save a bit more, you can do away calcium reactor, de-nitrator etc etc but u have to spend time dosing and monitoring the parameters.

However, if buying a clam can cost you a arm and a leg, I would advise you to stay away from reef and remain at FOWLR at the moment. To have both AT and black tang together, you would need at least a 4ft tank(and they definitely cost a bomb too!). AT is definitely not for a new tank, better to add it as your tank becomes more mature. It needs lots of space and of course strong current and good water quality. If you think you can provide for it, then go for it. If not., don't kill that beautiful fish.

Finally, I thought epsom salt is to raise magnesium? When has it become a pH buffer? Unless, you have low magnesium level and trying to raise the magnesium level so that alkalinity can be raise or maintain more easily which in turn has an effect on pH. However, test your magnesium before adding anything.

lizard44 · February 12, 2005

thx bro deepblue

thanks for the encouragement. i don't mean to be a dead-pan cheapo but i have learnt it the hard way.

during my heady days ten years ago, (1995+) being young and bull-headed, i had by mistake invested in many properties. the property bubble finally burst in 1997. since that time to now, i was on the brink of bankruptcy. this period i can assure you bros out there don't try it, it is not funny. every single banks in singapore took turns to be my nightmares nightly. it was only the beginning of this year that i more or less freed myself from this threat. as a humble form of celebration - a very kind-hearted reefer here sold me a 4-ft tank for $250. i am eternally grateful to this reefer bro.

i cannot describe how much i love this tank (i have never kept fishes in my whole life, this is my first try).

unfortunately, the more i read about this hobby, the more i realised i don't yet know. so it is going to be a long long journey towards responsible reefing. the equipments i have paid for are not cheap ones as i do hope to provide some good environment for the inhabitants in my tank.

but there is a limit to what more i could put my hands on. no money leh ... so meantime must try using my table salt and sugar to spice things up for the inhabitants. :pirate:

thx bro lin

:ph34r: :ph34r: of course, i am all out to learn from you and when i am better at it, share what i know with those who are new and "chide" them hard when they make a wrong turn ... hahahahahaha ... kidding ... :ph34r: :ph34r:

actually this truly reminded me of the "finding nemo" show, every newbie has to go through that "sharkbait whoo-haa-haa" thingy. in varsity, no difference also, i almost kanna that "royal flush" thing, fortunately they let me off by stripping me ###### with another girl in a blanket (ang mo girl so not so fun leh). :yeah:

thx bro optimus prime

yes. i am sticking to FOWLR first until my water parameters are up to speed. thanks for the great money-saving advice. :eyeblur:

thx bro chewlaoheng

show me your tank leh :bow:

thx bro lucifer

don't know, man, this is what i read:

About 6 years ago I had a 75gal tank that was completely overrun with hair algae (the outbreak started while I was away on a trip and someone was watching the tank for me). I tried everything I could think of to get rid of the algae and I was losing the battle and lost a number of sps. I was watching TV one night and someone was talking about using straw in a pond to ‘feed’ the bacteria and starve the algae. The person being interviewed mentioned that the straw would be broken down into sugars and used by the good bacteria in the pond. The increased bacteria population would then be able to deal with the waste products in the lake before the algae could use them thus starving the algae. (This was a while ago and I am sure I am badly paraphrasing what was said on the news – and we all know how inaccurate the news can be at times.)

After searching the internet for more information I decided to start dosing my tank with sugar to see what would happen (I really didn’t’ think there was much to lose at this point). I added about a 8th of a teaspoon a day to the tank. About the 3rd day I saw that the Nitrates had become undetectable. Somewhere around the end of the second week the hair algae began to turn white and literally fall off the rocks. The skimmer started to produce a lot more effluent; I assumed it was removing the dying hair algae. Over the next two months (about) I weaned the tank off sugar. Everything that survived the initial hair algae outbreak (or whatever caused it) did fine for the next couple of months until I moved and sold the tank. I noticed that once I stopped adding sugar the nitrates returned to the levels they were before I went out of town. The hair algae did not return.

To this day I have wondered about how that tank would have done long term. I have wondered whether there would have been any ill side effects from all that sugar. I have also wondered about the low nitrate readings while adding the sugar.

The whole incident really came back to me the other day as I saw someone’s hair algae ridden tank. I mentioned what I had done to him and he gave me sort of a crazy look. I did tell him that I wouldn’t really recommend what I did because I had no idea what sort of bad things might happen later on or if anything in his tank would be sensitive to it.

I suppose the whole point of this post is to see if anyone can comment as to what the long term affects of adding sugar to a reef my be… If you are aware of any good internet reading material on the subject please let me know so I can educate myself.

Thanks.

I don't know about any long term effects, though I don't imagine there would be any significant ones -- sugars are basically just chains of carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen, all of which are going into your tank anyway.

As far as the nitrate reduction, it is entirely possible that it was a result of sugar addition. Most species of anaerobic denitrifying bacteria require a source of organic carbon (ie, a sugar of some kind). Remember that they are "breathing" the nitrate, not eating it; their food has to come from elsewhere. Simplistically, in the absence of free oxygen, some bacteria can pull a couple of oxygen atoms off nitrate, NO3, turning it into NO, which dissipates into the atmosphere. So Nitrate is an oxygen source, but getting that oxygen takes energy and therefore they must have abundant food. This is what takes place in external denitrator filters that are "fed" with special additives -- these additives are just one form or another of sugar. Most commonly, denatured alcohol or lactase are used, but I see no reason why sucrose or fructose wouldn't work also. Maybe someone who has a better grasp of biochemistry could give a better analysis of the actual pathways being used here? but I think this captures the drift of what was happening in your tank. The sugar food likely allowed any anaerobic-type denitrifying bacteria present in your tank to really get to work on that nitrate.

whether it is sugar or vodka or vinegar, they are chains of organic carbon, i think. since i have no money to buy vodka, so try table sugar first loh ... :nuke:

thx bro typrobin and junyong84

i just heard SPS costs $60 per piece. i am no way trying. :paiseh:

will stay with FOWLR for a long while :sick:

thx bro ekia

wow, sharp bro:

:bow: :bow: :bow: you are absolutely right. i anyhow how-siow that one and you spotted it. i was only trying out the table sugar method first to reduce my NO3 before trying to maintain ph, kh and Ca and so on (as a package i hope).

Epsom salts according to literature is used to maintain Mg. i will need to have a concoction of calcium chloride, baking soda and Epsom Salts.

i will try it after i try my NO3 reduction method using table sugar thingy.

so far no effect on the NO3 reduction, so i am increasing my dose to 1 tea-spoon per day and switch off my skimmer for 6 hours after dosing sugar in order for the bacteria to chow-in the sugar.

:thanks:

lizard

Lin · February 12, 2005

thx bro lin

of course, i am all out to learn from you and when i am better at it, share what i know with those who are new and "chide" them hard when they make a wrong turn ... hahahahahaha ... kidding ...

actually this truly reminded me of the "finding nemo" show, every newbie has to go through that "sharkbait whoo-haa-haa" thingy. in varsity, no difference also, i almost kanna that "royal flush" thing, fortunately they let me off by stripping me ###### with another girl in a blanket (ang mo girl so not so fun leh).

dun ned to thks me lar.. u are always welcome to tis hobbies.. i must agree with ekia "Most important is to understand why people do certain things and to understand the rationale behind it."

i always believe that theres no way to learn to fly w/o learning to walk..btw, i nv invest much on my tank oso.. :lol:

i am also glad i had known a few nice brother who is willing to share and lend their hands...

BELIEVE in YOUSELF

:peace:

Ekia · February 12, 2005

Using sugar has already been proven to be able to reduce nitrates. You have already explained it. However, this increased population of bacterias will use up a lot of oxygen. Some people advocate the use of a air pump to increase the oxygen level.

Seems like you have already read a lot... you shouldn't have any problems in this hobby :lol:

DeepBlue · February 12, 2005

Seems like you have already read a lot... you shouldn't have any problems in this hobby

think he knows more than a lot of us...

Lucifer · February 12, 2005

lizard44

currently im trying the vodka method....wonder it works on my tank...u can get those small bottles frm 7-11 mah..quite cheap actually...i'll tell u if this method really works well...

Cheers!!

Ekia · February 12, 2005

think he knows more than a lot of us...

yah agree... seems like his first post is to test water... :lol: :lol:

somebody · February 14, 2005

wow! good stuff bro. do post more on the sugar technique... i wanna do it too!! haha.... keep us posted on the effectiveness... would like to try it on my own 2ft tank too!! =) :bow:

lizard44 · February 20, 2005

dear bro DeepBlue

yes ... don't like that leh. reading is good mah. maybe you haven't met a real cheapo like me around. :evil:

to a certain extent, i have grown. i now no longer hanker after those cheapo damsels. nowadays, i hope to get more expensive fishes leh. :fear: :yeah: exchanging for every 2 damsels equals one expensive tiny fish.

but, i am not going to do that until my bag of tricks are up and running, i.e., my water parameters are up to speed: ZERO nitrate, high calcium, iodine and magnesium.

i do read a little ... but cheapo-ly ... trying out cheap means to reduce my running costs, if ever possible.

my take is that the singapore economy is going to move a little forward over the next 5 years.

during my days (30+), we were the people mopping up the properties and fueled the growth engine of singapore. 10 years on, i guess the batton is now passed to the next 30+s to buy up all these properties and again fuel the next singapore growth.

so i should be happier and leave for my canada retirement and start, with AT's permission, a canadian SRC branch there. :evil:

kidding ...

as for AT and/or black tang, my intention is to get 0.5 inch sized ones and not bigger, but i do have a 4-footer to let them grow fast.

:thanks: for the kind advice.

anyway, happy reefing to you and fabulous SRC too.

certainly, SRC has helped zillions of people here enjoy this hobby a lot more. if ever there is anything i could help out, do give me a shout, amidst a cheap way.

dear bro lin

hahahahaha ... thanks

i noticed your LS got no AT, when are you going to get one.

me itchy already ... liao ... :sick:

dear bro Ekia

thanks for the advice on the use of sugar.

yes, you are dead right. the oxygen level is lowered during the sugar dosing phase.

i am still very new to the hobby, about 1.5 months. hope you could share more of your experience ....

dear bro Lucifer

same same .... vodka or sugar or vinegar or methanol all chains of carbon. i am glad that you are also experimenting ... do keep us informed of your results ... so that we could all learn from you ...

dear bro somebody

finally i can now update this thread:

my experiment (4-footer=120g):

day 1: ph=8.20 NO3=30 (cheap test)

sg is stable throughout at 1.0215 so i will not bore you with it. no chiller and corals lah ... so kept sg low. don't want to have ich also. this day, i started dosing 0.5 tea-spoon of table sugar.

day 5: ph=8.19 NO3=30 (cheap test)

since not much change to NO3, i have increased the dosage to 1 tea-spoon of table sugar. during dosage, i stopped skimmer for 6 hours to allow sugar to get to bacteria. no deaths to LS and i have also stopped the ph buffer dosing. so that i can know what effects it has to the sugar dosing.

day 8: ph=8.17 NO3=20 (cheap test)

the NO3 showed signs of falling too nice, but, ph showed signs of falling . i have maintained the dosage at 1 tea-spoon of table sugar. no deaths to LS. the skimmate now is alot more stinky. from bro Ekia, oxygen level will be low so i continued the skimmer during dosing. my caulerpa rosa however collapsed (due to lowering of nitrate, i know because previously, if nitrate is high, the slimy red cyano bact is growing happily, so does the rosa ). water showed a little cloudy during dosing. 4" sandbed started to show some blackishness.

day 14: ph=8.09 NO3=20 (cheap test) 25 (salifert test)

in order to have real proper nitrate test. i have decided to buy a !#@$% expensive salifert nitrate test at $32! the NO3 showed further signs of falling nice, but, ph showed more signs of falling . i have again increased the dosage to 1.5 tea-spoon of table sugar. no deaths to LS. my turtle weed however showed great growth. got small bundle of shoots coming out. can frag soon nice. water no longer clouds during dosing. 4" sandbed started to show more blackishness but has stopped blackening.

next step:

looks like the NO3 reduction is happening (although slowly). the LS are still very happy. i will continue to adjust the sugar dosage.

i have also bought 1 kg of karwasser (very cheap at $20) from you-know-who. some baking soda (100% pure from Arm & Hammer 454g at $1.80, they are 150 years old). soon i will be buying the epsom salts from ntuc. the aim for this is to dose up the calcium, magnesium and ph for my cheap-cheap corals.

btw, my !@#$%^^ expensive crocea clam ($30) is showing great colours: got blue, green and gold all in a 1-inch size. damn chio but i got no camera to show.

i also got yellow tang, lemonpeel, flame angel and coral beauty (all 1-inch sized), blue tangs x 3 (0.5 in), boxer shrimp (0.5 inch from 0.25 in), mandarins x 6 (0.75 inch, feeding on frozen sea-monkeys, damn stupid feeders, very very slow, always not enough to eat due to damsel invasions), millions of damsels, very happily feeding. i am going to clear all my damsels, they have grown from 0.5 in to 0.75 in liao. too big ...

a boss from AM just told me: buyi fish better buy tiny ... they adapt extremely well. not like the older folks never able to learn new tricks for survival ... don't like pellets lah, no frozen food lah, must be live ones and all that craps :pirate:

so seahorses also buy tiny one-inch sized ???

:bow:

lizard

Archer82 · February 20, 2005

Hi bros,

Regarding the adding of sugar, I added about 3 teaspoonfuls of sugar day before yesterday.

I tested my nitrate levels using a cheap tester and found that my nitrates have reduced close to half !

I have added in another 2 teaspoonfuls today to see the effect.

Anyway cloudiness of the tank water occured but no LS whatsoever appeared affected.

It cleared like in a day's time.

Cheers

Archer

XPeriment 626 · February 21, 2005

you want real cheapo method of reefing?

1) Buy a large transparent tupperware box

2) Go east coast, fill with seawater

3) Drop in a rock or two

4) Put in one damsel

5) Put small air pump

6) Change 20% fresh seawater every weekend

Ta-da! Cheapo reefing! (actually FOWLR, but aiyah got moving things inside can liao) :evil:

mUAr_cHEe · February 21, 2005

you want real cheapo method of reefing?

1) Buy a large transparent tupperware box

2) Go east coast, fill with seawater

3) Drop in a rock or two

4) Put in one damsel

5) Put small air pump

6) Change 20% fresh seawater every weekend

Ta-da! Cheapo reefing! (actually FOWLR, but aiyah got moving things inside can liao)

tupperware also counted expensive lah....

heehee....

must go DAISO!!!!

somebody · February 21, 2005

so the addition of sugar results in a drop in pH? hmm... so how? how to deal with the drop in pH? will the dosage of pH buffer work?

seamonkee · February 21, 2005

lizard44

currently im trying the vodka method....wonder it works on my tank...u can get those small bottles frm 7-11 mah..quite cheap actually...i'll tell u if this method really works well...

Cheers!!

Did u apply the proper husbandry on the vodka method?

It is VERY VERY Important.... pls follow these steps accordingly.... I'm serious!!!

1) Take a 10ml measuring bottle

2) Pour 3ml of vodka in.... taste two gulpfuls first from bottle to ensure vodka has not turned bad....

3) Pour another 3ml of vodka in measuring bottle... Swirl the bottle and at the same time, take another two gulps from the bottle to ensure vodka's quality... U dun want to pour bad stuff into ur lovely tank....

4) To be sure esp if u have bought ur vodka from 7-11, take another gulp to ensure that the mischevious 7-11 counter staff has not replaced it with water...

5) At this time, you hold out the 6ml of measuring bottle in hand and shout out loud..... "To hell with you fishes with your nitrate problems!!!" and bottoms up that 6ml of vodka....

The above procedure will only work for those taking the vodka approach to solving nitrate problems..... after 5mins, u will see nice "ripples" in ur tank and ur fishes appears more colourful with rainbow hues.... definitely appearing much healthier...

:lol:

XPeriment 626 · February 22, 2005

jsut tried thaat methodd *hic*

it workkzz! *hic*

:eyeblur:

Ekia · February 22, 2005

LoL.... wonderful method. But it only works for that night. :lol:

diabolus · February 22, 2005

Did u apply the proper husbandry on the vodka method?

It is VERY VERY Important.... pls follow these steps accordingly.... I'm serious!!!

1) Take a 10ml measuring bottle

2) Pour 3ml of vodka in.... taste two gulpfuls first from bottle to ensure vodka has not turned bad....

3) Pour another 3ml of vodka in measuring bottle... Swirl the bottle and at the same time, take another two gulps from the bottle to ensure vodka's quality... U dun want to pour bad stuff into ur lovely tank....

4) To be sure esp if u have bought ur vodka from 7-11, take another gulp to ensure that the mischevious 7-11 counter staff has not replaced it with water...

5) At this time, you hold out the 6ml of measuring bottle in hand and shout out loud..... "To hell with you fishes with your nitrate problems!!!" and bottoms up that 6ml of vodka....

The above procedure will only work for those taking the vodka approach to solving nitrate problems..... after 5mins, u will see nice "ripples" in ur tank and ur fishes appears more colourful with rainbow hues.... definitely appearing much healthier...

damnz..

mine is the big bottle.

better apply leave the next day.

:lol:

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